The 'Air Coryell' Offense
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 20, 2012 11:52 AM EST
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PrintHello my fellow fans. With the recent criticism our offense has seen over the past days, weeks, months, I thought it would be a good idea to look a little more in depth at what we’re seeing on Sundays and decided to write this, my first ever FanPost on Baltimore Beatdown. So, if you decide to take the time to read all of it, I want you to know that I greatly, greatly appreciate it and I hope you enjoy it.
The Air Coryell offense, or the"vertical offense", is an offensive scheme designed by one time San Diego coach, Don Coryell, in the 1970s-1980s. The basics of this offense include:
- An emphasis on down field, vertical passing that features most or all WRs and TEs running deep or mid-range routes with at least two deep targets on any given play
- Timing routes, where the QB is to throw to a pre-determined "spot" where the receiver will "meet" the ball
- Sometimes having no set formations to allow receivers to move about freely in motion for a variety of reasons such as: reading the defense, creating mis-matches, and most importantly, putting the defensive back that is shadowing the receiver off balance, so that the receiver has an easier time beating an attempted jam by the DB off of the line
- Strong and steady pass protection so that the receivers may complete their routes
- A power inside running game with an emphasis on having a big, tall, strong armed "pocket" Quarterback
Again, these are just some of the basic principles of an offense that, quite honestly, is very intricate, and delicate, requiring the utmost precision to meet its full potential. I’m not saying that all of these principles apply to the particular variation that Baltimore runs.
While Baltimore has addressed its need for bigger, faster receivers, the Coryell offense, in its most simple form, requires that each receiver have speed and size. While several of Baltimore’s WRs and TEs have the size advantage (Boldin, Dickson, Pitta), others have the speed factor (T. Smith, Evans), but Baltimore doesn’t really have one receiver that combines both attributes with the exception of perhaps T. Smith and Dickson. Remember, this offense requires rare human beings that fit a very specific mold.
Recently Baltimore’s offense has been criticized by fans, players and coaches alike for being very vanilla, with our own Offensive Coordinator saying that, "there’s probably some predictability to it." Since this offensive scheme is based on a lot of deep timing routes that are thrown to a particular spot, I’d imagine that it would be a pretty easy read for a solid secondary to know that when Torrey takes off, you better bring safety help over the top. I think that this has been a key issue for our offense this season. Once Torrey had his break out game in St. Louis, teams knew that they had to stop him - usually by putting their best DBs on him and bringing safety help. Because Smith has been our only real and consistent deep threat this season, it has hindered the offenses overall production in a system that requires several burners.
Another factor that has hindered our version of the Coryell offense has been our overall pass protection. Deep routes being called with much frequency means that the protection the QB receives must be ample. This isn't always the case, especially against very good pass rushing teams like Houston. Instead of neutralizing the pass rush with quick slants and shorter patterns, we tend to stay true to the ways of going for the long ball. If we’re so committed to hitting big plays all the while having shaky O-Line play, why not add new wrinkles to the overall system? For example, Joe rolling to his right where he has shown to be effective, the shotgun formation, or even adding extra blockers like a TE. Any of these are small and easy adjustments that wouldn’t have to stop our endless propensity to go deep, and would make a big difference.
In general, a main goal of the Coryell offense is to spread out a defense, forcing the opposition to have to cover as much of the field as possible by repeatedly sending multiple targets deep. The best example I can think of that demonstrates an Air Coryell system working up to its potential would be our very own Baltimore v San Diego game this season. It was clear that our secondary was over matched and we were constantly being beat deep by bigger, faster receivers.
As a whole, I don’t hate the Air Coryell offense as far as how it pertains to our team. I’ve said this many times and it’s the only way I can easily describe our offensive system and our current personnel: square peg, round hole. There is something that just doesn’t quite fit and doesn’t seem to come naturally, but instead feels forced. I do, however, think that with some of the minor tweaks I’ve mentioned our offense could at least survive, even produce much better results. If we are going to continue running this offense I think it would be wise to start disguising routes using bunch formations so DBs can’t always key in on our deep threat guys and hope that said DBs get "lost in traffic" a bit. It would be great to mix in some shorter quick stuff to keep the defense honest and most of all, pick our spots better when it comes to going for those homeruns. If Cameron stays around a while to continue his "reign of terror", we need to get some more pieces in place, because it seems to me that we’re only halfway there under the Air Coryell from both a pure personnel and schematic view.
The opinions posted here are those of the administrator of this blog and his loyal readers. They are in no way official comments from the team, and should not be misconstued as such, even though he thinks he could do just as well or even a better job!
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… it seems to me that we’re only halfway there under the Air Coryell from both a pure personnel and schematic view.
Great point, and a well written article.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
State your case, back it up with facts and reasonable opinions ...
Bruce Raffel
Awesome fanpost and glad someone made an actual fanpost about this because I don’t think some grasp exactly how the air coryell offense works. You can see how many things need to go right in order for it to be successful and that’s the problem. SD has the personel to actually make it successful where as we don’t. This has been the downfall of our offense and I feel some of the success we have had at times is more a credit to the talent of some of our players more so than the actual scheme. Rarely do we have a great design that gets somebody open with room to run. I can remember three times where we actually hit Torrey on a drag where he had room to run and one he got a nice gain, one he scored on and the other he was a dread away from scoring on. Why can’t we consistently develop plays to get a guy like Torrey with some speed some room to run? This offense is not performing at a level it’s capable of and as Amp has said before there’s only so much Joe can do when he’s set up to fail before the ball is even snapped.
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
by AV23 on Jan 20, 2012 7:24 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
SD has the personel to actually make it successful …
Once they got a good tackle in Gaither, things started coming together for them. Prior to that, San Diego was a case study in how strict the personnel requirements for the Air Coryell system are, and how poorly the system works when the offensive line is deficient.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
State your case, back it up with facts and reasonable opinions ...
Bruce Raffel
Offensive Coordinator saying that, “there’s probably some predictability to it.”
Cameron said this?! Donald Trump’s hair should have immediately appeared like a genie and said, “you’re fired!”
“Audibles are over rated” and now “there’s probably some predictability to it.”
GAH!
daytime commentator. night time ninja.
The NFL is a strange place
I am wondering really hard what we will see Sunday from Cam.
I think that there may some tricks in that man’s sleeve- Let’s say I hope there is.
by RavensfaninTX on Jan 20, 2012 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
lets just hope
we get one of Cameron’s random gems on Sunday. Lord knows he’s called some good games before. We need it now.
"And, don’t get me started on Joe Flacco," Simms continued. "Did the experts watch the game? Joe didn’t miss a throw, not one. I watched every play. Every time he had the opportunity, he hit the guy. And, he made some moves so he could complete other throws. Are these people watching? What was Joe supposed to do with Texans in his face? Throw it up and hope? Sometimes a sack is a good thing. The object is to win the game. You did."
Very Most Excellent
Post and write up. The keys to remember is that you must have two deep threats- we have (a rookie) Torrey and a just off injury Evans -that’s it; and and O-line that can pass block long enough for these deep routes to develop.
You are very correct that while our offense may be predictable per Cam’s own words, at least make an effort to somewhat disguise what the receivers are doing -we don’t even do that…
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
I know Filmstudy said he had trouble posting here so here is the link to the offensive performance against Houston.
http://ravens24x7.com/columns/Filmstudy/FILMSTUDY-Ravens-Call-Texans-All-Ins-11512
For those who don’t want to read it he pretty much confirmed what we have been defending Flacco on. Line play on the right side was horrible including Oher grading out as the second lowest he has ever scored only behind the Pitt game last year from Cousins (ouch). Also Flacco did make some excellent throws along with 4 drops. Good read.
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
Just to let everyone know, I did have a lot of trouble posting this. It didn’t like the overall format it was in and ended up looking like a blank page when in preview mode. My gf then suggested to use Mozilla instead of Internet Explorer and that fixed it. I’m not a big computer person, but I hope that suggestion helps.
Thanks for reading everyone!
"Don't throw it, don't throw it, don't throw it. I know y'all going to throw it, they going to throw it anyway. I wouldn't throw it. Don't do it." - Ed Reed
You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say Six, I say Sweep.
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 20, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
As a General Rule
Of thumb, Microsoft = crap. Rich crap, makes a lot of people a lot of money crap, but crap nevertheless.
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
on the film
I watched of the Texans’ game, Flacco made some excellent plays, I often suspected playcalling was an impetus of the Ravens’ futility…
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Jan 20, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah they have only noticed the bad. Sadly what Cosell said was very true. It really is more of an old school offense and we don’t have the WR’s to win one on one all game and being isolated like that. That’s a big part why we rarely see guys wide open.
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
How ridiculous is it that the Steelers would probably be a better fit for a veritcal scheme anyway?
They have the speed, they have a QB that can extend plays long enough to shoot deep and they have an actual power back. The line isn’t up to snuff at all, but with Ben that doesn’t matter.
Just use lots of disguises
to get Torrey in favorable situations, he’s hard to compete with once he gets the ball in the open field.
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Jan 20, 2012 1:20 PM EST reply actions
I agree with what you said, but again, what you said is the exact opposite of what we try to do with guys like Torrey. Like AV mentioned, it’s extremley rare that we ever disguise anything our WRs are doing and we don’t try anything in the way of drag or crossing routes. One of the main reasons is because our scheme almost dictates that our deep threat guys just run go routes the entire game, and our OC stubbornly abides by the very strict principles of the Coryell offense.
Trust me, getting Torrey or Lee in space would be a thing of beauty. But it’s (sadly) so rare, that you’d have an easier time finding civil war artifacts in your back yard.
"Don't throw it, don't throw it, don't throw it. I know y'all going to throw it, they going to throw it anyway. I wouldn't throw it. Don't do it." - Ed Reed
You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say Six, I say Sweep.
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 20, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
This. It would be awesome, but just rarely happens. He really doesn’t use Torrey or Boldin to their full potential and it’s a shame. It honestly looks like there’s more plays to get Leach open with some room to run than there is for anyone else lol
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
Yea, but even Leach catching a pass out of the backfield hasn’t shown up for a month.
Every game before kickoff, I say to myself….“please, please prove me wrong Cam”, and doing that is wearing me thin.
"Don't throw it, don't throw it, don't throw it. I know y'all going to throw it, they going to throw it anyway. I wouldn't throw it. Don't do it." - Ed Reed
You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say Six, I say Sweep.
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 20, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Torrey will get loose Sunday and that will open everything up.
Three key is for the Ravens coaches to have 60 minutes of gameplan ready because they’ll have to close out against a QB that can make late magic happen, much like Flacco at Heinz
It will be frustrating to deep the same routes being run on the outside, as it is to see so few slants to Boldin.
by Evan Skev on Jan 20, 2012 5:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hey, can I have the winning powerball numbers? What? You can’t see the future and you just blow hot air through your fingers? Damn it, I should have known.
Can I get some hot sauce for my doughnut?
by FrankWyt on Jan 20, 2012 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I live in Utah
so no Civil War relics to be found there, but there are some dinosaur bones I bet. Cam Cameron, who has an unfortunate name much like my friend’s maiden name, Kimberly Kimber, needs to be less anal-retentive and find matchups that work
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Jan 20, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Great Post! 3 Questions
Many thanks for this — a great read! Couple questions:
1. How does the “Diesel” package the Ravens runs with both TEs fit into the Air Coryell offense? Against the Cardinals (crap team) that seemed add some mystery to what the O was doing. Sometimes it ended up being a kind of max protect thing for Joe in the shotgun. Other times it created mismatches for the opposing LBs.
2. The other upside of Torrey drawing so much attention, as we saw against Texas, is that Anquan draws the second best CB. And, because of his strength and (usually) good hands, he seems to be a match-up problem for most CBs in short and medium routes and in slants. How does a slot receiver like Q fit into Air Coryell? Is he supposed to go deep/medium all the time too? Doesn’t seem like that’s what we’ve seen.
3. How does Lee Evans factor into all of this? Is he healthy? If so, he should fit right into Air Coryell as another WR that can burn people — he’s not very big though. I personally think they’ll be a lot more catches like the one he made against the Texans. IMHO, people were way to quick to label that pick-up a bust….the guy was injured for most of the season…he’s in a new system…it’s going to take him a few games to figure out his place and get his rhythm together with Joe.
Thoughts?
How does the "Diesel" package the Ravens runs with both TEs fit into the Air Coryell offense?
Once you’ve established the power running game and the defense is respecting the deep pass by playing safeties back, play action becomes crucial to pulling the linebackers forward and opening up the middle of the field for the tight ends. This is where the beauty of the Air Coryell system comes into play: the defense really has to decide whether to defend the run, the deep pass, or the tight ends over the middle. Also, the tight ends were both used to block on several of the Texans’ 7-man rush attempts last weekend.
How does a slot receiver like Q fit into Air Coryell?
That’s still a mystery. Boldin made his living in Arizona by going over the middle for tough grabs and fighting for YAC; the system in place there helped make that possible by using other receivers to help open up that area for Boldin. The system we run doesn’t do that, and also seems not to make full use of Boldin in the short-to-medium range.
How does Lee Evans factor into all of this?
Theoretically, having a second deep threat should really help to stretch the defense vertically (the core principle of the Air Coryell system). How it actually turns out is anybody’s guess.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
State your case, back it up with facts and reasonable opinions ...
Bruce Raffel
Very Cool.
Thanks. I just remember TEs and Q being really big in that game against Arizona where we actually had to manufacture a lot of points. Makes me wonder why we can’t exploit those options more.
Thanks very much for reading. Really do appreciate it a bunch!
1. Essentially, TEs in a basic Coryell are to be used very similarly to WRs. They can be brought in motion, run similar routes ect. But the general idea was if you found a gem TE that possessed immense size and speed that he could wreak havoc, and like you said create a lot of mis matches for Defenses. The goal of a TE in this type of offense is to disguise his intentions before the snap by lining up wide, on the line of scrimmage or be sent in motion to keep the D guessing. Before the Coryell a typical TE would be assigned as and extra blocker or as a short target that would run shorter crossing routes. I think in our particular version, it’d be better to have the TE stay as an extra blocker for two reasons: One, we have perhaps only one TE (Dickson) that can stretch the field, and two, our offensive line hasn’t been terrific as of late pass protecting, therefor an extra blocker would be able to provide Joe more time to find guys downfield.
2. Boldin has shown pretty good ability to stretch the field when healthy. I’d say that he’s one of the pieces to this type of offense that fits better than others. He has great size, strength and hands, like you said. The general idea is to get as many deep targets down field on any given pass play. Boldin excels when running medium level crossing routes and to some extent we see him do that. Just not as much as anyone would like. Again, at it’s foundation the Coryell favors a vertical passing game over a shorter-mid range mixture of crossing stuff.
3. I still have faith in Evans and I’m hoping he’ll show up big this weekend. I don’t think he’s been given a fair shake yet because he hasn’t had much time to show anyone anything. My view with him now is that if he can make a few big plays that sway the game or the playoffs at large in our favor, then he was worth a fourth rounder no matter how much he produced earlier on in the season.
These types of offenses have low comp. %. It’s a trade off of risk/reward. West Coast stuff has higher success rates, but with Coryell if you complete a successful bomb the production (reward) is worth the risk (incompletion or INT).
"Don't throw it, don't throw it, don't throw it. I know y'all going to throw it, they going to throw it anyway. I wouldn't throw it. Don't do it." - Ed Reed
You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say Six, I say Sweep.
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 20, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Very Cool Again. Red Zone?
Many thanks. As has been mentioned elsewhere on this BLOG, the other advantage of all those deep routes is the potential for interference penalties. Also, because of some of our Red Zone woes makes me wonder. What happens to Air Coryell in the Red Zone? You can’t really go deep anymore and I imagine you can’t just always ask your big bruising RB to run it in if everyone’s is sitting on him. Is it Air Coryell with a touch of West Coast in the Red Zone?
Thats a great point. I can’t really answer that without going back and looking at game tape. One of the needs for Coryell is that you have a strong inside running game, but we don’t always try to punch it in with Rice, Ricky, or Leach. So, I’m not really sure. Maybe someone can give Cam a call? Haha.
Another interesting fact about the Coryell v. West Coast is that when the Coryell was developed, it was thought, and proven to a point, that you needed much more talented offensive players in a Coryell offense than in a West Coast offense.
"Don't throw it, don't throw it, don't throw it. I know y'all going to throw it, they going to throw it anyway. I wouldn't throw it. Don't do it." - Ed Reed
You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say Six, I say Sweep.
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 20, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
statistically our red zone performance is pretty poor
we definitely don’t get a lot of TDs, and when we do, they tend to be rushing.
Bottom line is you have to break from philosophy to pass for a TD in the red zone, because you have to run across the field.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Whose offense would you guys rather have Billicks or Cams.
by Raven_all_day on Jan 20, 2012 6:10 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I'd rather have an offense that fits my players.
Why are we setting up straw men?
You come at the king, you best not miss.
by organizedchaos52 on Jan 21, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
Before I forget, I wanted to thank whoever it was that was kind enough to put this on the front page today! I’m assuming it was you, Bruce, but my thanks goes out to everyone for reading and I hope everyone enjoyed. Thanks!
"Don't throw it, don't throw it, don't throw it. I know y'all going to throw it, they going to throw it anyway. I wouldn't throw it. Don't do it." - Ed Reed
You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say Six, I say Sweep.
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 20, 2012 6:26 PM EST reply actions
Thanks. I tried to make this as “user friendly” as possible, but even still it’s a lot to take in.
And, of course you can ask questions. I don’t fully understand this stuff either, it would require months, maybe years to understand a pro offense as detailed as this.
"Don't throw it, don't throw it, don't throw it. I know y'all going to throw it, they going to throw it anyway. I wouldn't throw it. Don't do it." - Ed Reed
You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say Six, I say Sweep.
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 20, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
Air Coryelle
…requires massive personal commitments on offense to work. There is a reason none of those chargers teams won championships, they did have the cap space or draft pics to spend on defense when they put them all on offense. Given the resources we put into our defense I’m not sure we can run Air Coryelle.
I think they took a look at the 2008 Ravens and figured they would be able to run up the gut well (not true after losing gaither and oher not panning out), and that our big armed QB would be able to throw deep (our only deep threat is tory, and he has some of the dropsees sometimes). Looking back I think the biggest free agent mistake we made over the last few years was getting Boldin. If we want a guy to go over the middle we could use Dickson and Pitta. We needed a Randy Moss type.
Wrong scheme…wrong personnel…wrong manager…but the jig is just about up
The one thing that sorrows me is the management of human resources. The most recent example is mcdaniels and cutler. Cameron’s last great act could be ruining the Ravens relationship with Flacco.
by Evan Skev on Jan 21, 2012 12:54 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think the major problem with this offense is the drop passes and it sucks that when cornerbacks get physical with our wideouts they get over powered for some reason.
We all know the Joe Flacco is a inconsistent quarterback so most likely you going to have a inconsistent offense
We all know the Joe Flacco is a inconsistent quarterback …
Can somebody please tell me who this mythical, consistent quarterback is? Every time somebody calls Flacco “inconsistent,” it’s implied that there are other quarterbacks that areconsistent, and I just can’t find any examples of this. Brady threw four interceptions against Buffalo. Brees has had several multi-interception games and took like 15 sacks in just four games. After looking great all season, Rodgers looked mediocre in the only game that mattered. Ryan sucks outside of domes. Stafford is injury prone.
If Flacco is inconsistent, then who is setting the gold standard for consistency towards which Flacco should aspire?
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
State your case, back it up with facts and reasonable opinions ...
Bruce Raffel
by Ampallang on Jan 21, 2012 8:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Can somebody please tell me who this mythical, consistent quarterback is? Every time somebody calls Flacco "inconsistent," it’s implied that there are other quarterbacks that areconsistent, and I just can’t find any examples of this.
Omg man is it really that serious but lets be real here yes brady threw four interceptions but he’s more consistent at playing good or beyound good than Flacco. Every quarterback in the league is inconsistent but you have quarterbacks that a lot more inconsistent than others.
If Flacco is inconsistent, then who is setting the gold standard for consistency towards which Flacco should aspire?
I dont need to say who setting the gold standards for consistency becuase there is none but I do see games where Flacco could had played better but dont. The way Flacco played against houston, steelers, bengels, and etc is something I would like to seev more often but i do understand quarterbacks have their bad days. I’m not saying Flacco should be this mythical consistent quarterback but it would be nice to see him lower his inconsistency. As I said before every quarterback is inconsistent but there some that are more inconsistent than others.
… he’s more consistent at playing good or beyound good than Flacco.
Brady is in a system that emphasizes the pass and plays to the strengths of the personnel. It’s no surprise that he puts up good stats. Flacco, on the other hand, has to deal with poor line play, inconsistent run production, and receivers that rarely get open and frequently drop passes when they do, all of which have serious deleterious effects on the Air Coryell philosophy. Saying that Flacco is inconsistent is just scapegoating him for deficiencies in other parts of the offense that make it near impossible for him to perform anywhere near a Brady-like level.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
State your case, back it up with facts and reasonable opinions ...
Bruce Raffel
No offense AT ALL to Jazz. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on Joe, but this is exactly why I wrote this post….to demonstrate how perfect this system has to run to be effective in the slightest, and how we as a team currently, just don’t have the proper personnel to run it.
I really think words like “inconsistent” are thrown around too much now much just like how the word “elite” is thrown around frivolously. It doesn’t actually mean anything. It’s just a bunch of crap that ESPN says to make them sound like they watched any football. Arrrrggh, I hate ESPN and this is why. Why can’t people that ACTUALLY watch football and enjoy analyzing it get paid for it instead.
"Don't throw it, don't throw it, don't throw it. I know y'all going to throw it, they going to throw it anyway. I wouldn't throw it. Don't do it." - Ed Reed
You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say Six, I say Sweep.
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 21, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
A few do. Others just like they way they look in $1000 suits and they way they sound throwing around cliches.
I like the Monday Night Countdown crew because they have a diversity of opinions and they seem to cover the league pretty fairly. You can always trust Ditka to give it to you straight, and while I often disagree with Key and Cris, you can usually trust Berman to present contrarian points of view to their arguments.
Unfortunately, ESPN pretty much has a monopoly on anybody who cares to follow sports and the impressions they put forth are reflected by an NFL fanbase that isn’t able to watch the games so they have to rely on Sports Center to tell them how (in)competent Joe Flacco is.
/rant
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
I agree 100%. Some guys are better than others, and I do enjoy Berman a lot. Besides him picking us and giving our team a nice speech this week, he’s the most entertaining to me while also remaining pretty objective and factual. And, like you said, he goes against the grain of what his co hosts usually present and I like that. He’s a free thinker and doesn’t get bogged down by others’ opinions. I probably get more ticked off than I should when I think experts are wrong and that’s only on me. Either way, no way I’m going to be able to sleep tonight with the game tomorrow. Feel like a five year old on Christmas eve.
"Don't throw it, don't throw it, don't throw it. I know y'all going to throw it, they going to throw it anyway. I wouldn't throw it. Don't do it." - Ed Reed
You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say Six, I say Sweep.
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 21, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
flacco, on the other hand, has to deal with poor line play, inconsistent run production, and receivers that rarely get open and frequently drop passes when they do, all of which have serious deleterious effects on the Air Coryell philosophy. Saying that Flacco is inconsistent is just scapegoating him for deficiencies in other parts of the offense that make it near impossible for him to perform anywhere near a Brady-like level
So i guess im the only one seeing when Flacco takes too long to throw a pass to his wideouts, Flacco for some reason not seeing the open wideouts, Flacco not running with the ball to get some postive yards(I mean consistently) when he notice wideouts not open, Flacco overthrowing or under throwing wideouts(well he doesn’t do that as much) and etc.
Amp if you dont think Flacco isn’t inconsistent or should i say have certain flaws then thats cool besides I think i already said the major problem with the ravens offense was drop passes. Yes wideouts dropping passes, o-line inconsistent play( ranked 12 in league), and etc plays a factor but that doesn’t mean Joe Flacco poor play doesn’t.
I think he’s saying that it’d be hard for any QB to overcome so many problems. He’s just one guy in an offense that requires each piece to be going well.
Occasionally Joe does hold on to the ball for too long, but most times I think it’s cause his receivers aren’t getting separation. It’s better to tack a sack than to force a ball into coverage and risk an INT.
"Don't throw it, don't throw it, don't throw it. I know y'all going to throw it, they going to throw it anyway. I wouldn't throw it. Don't do it." - Ed Reed
You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say Six, I say Sweep.
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 21, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
I hope so too. Can’t wait!
"Don't throw it, don't throw it, don't throw it. I know y'all going to throw it, they going to throw it anyway. I wouldn't throw it. Don't do it." - Ed Reed
You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say Six, I say Sweep.
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 21, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
So i guess im the only one seeing when Flacco takes too long to throw a pass to his wideouts,
No, but apparently you’re the only one of us here with all-22 footage who can see when the wideouts are open. If you ask Phil Simms and Cosell, they often are not open. All you see is a QB standing there and you want to see a pass and a completion. But you can’t see downfield and you don’t realize that sometimes, there’s just no play to be made.
Amp if you dont think Flacco isn’t inconsistent or should i say have certain flaws then thats cool besides I think i already said the major problem with the ravens offense was drop passes.
This is just ridiculous. You just equated what Amp was saying with basically arguing that Flacco is “flawless,” which isn’t what anybody has said. Does Flacco make mistakes? Yeah, Amp’s whole point is that ALL QBs DO. The offensive woes are primarily not his fault. His receivers struggle to beat man coverage, his OC struggles to adjust to his personnel strengths, and his O-Line struggles to protect him. What magical QB are you waiting for who can make his receivers get open?
Oh I know, you want him to be a better leader. It’s Flacco’s fault they don’t get open because he doesn’t yell at them enough. Bullshit. Moving on.
You struggle to define Joe Flacco’s poor play beyond simple cliches. You can’t provide any specific examples of plays he should have made—only Ed Reed has done so and even Phil Simms basically refuted that (I trust a QB over a frustrated defensive player).
"And, don’t get me started on Joe Flacco," Simms continued. "Did the experts watch the game? Joe didn’t miss a throw, not one. I watched every play. Every time he had the opportunity, he hit the guy. And, he made some moves so he could complete other throws. Are these people watching? What was Joe supposed to do with Texans in his face? Throw it up and hope? Sometimes a sack is a good thing. The object is to win the game. You did."
via ampa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5c8quTi-1Dw
why bother arguing this any longer… Flacco is in the playoffs every season of his career. He is in the conference championship two of four seasons. The Ravens don’t have a lot of options at WR. The Ravens OC thinks it’s 1960. What part of this gives anyone the idea that the environment is one that is conducive to success at QB?
No idear
What i said before I still stand by that. All i want to see is Flacco play better and Im very aware that the o-line and wideouts have their problems
but at same time I know Flacco has his problems.
Everybody should look at this video of Mel Kiper on Mike & Mike talking about Flacco and the talent surrounding him.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
State your case, back it up with facts and reasonable opinions ...
Bruce Raffel
by Ampallang on Jan 21, 2012 4:32 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Finally someone on a big media level really talks about what Joe has to work with. You rarely hear anybody questioning the other guys on the offensive side. He said it perfectly that how can you be looking for all this huge progression when the pieces aren’t there to help him do that?
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
I’m fairly sure if SB Nation kept a “recs per comment” statistic, Ampallang would lead the league.
"And, don’t get me started on Joe Flacco," Simms continued. "Did the experts watch the game? Joe didn’t miss a throw, not one. I watched every play. Every time he had the opportunity, he hit the guy. And, he made some moves so he could complete other throws. Are these people watching? What was Joe supposed to do with Texans in his face? Throw it up and hope? Sometimes a sack is a good thing. The object is to win the game. You did."
by jackmca on Jan 21, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Honestly, saying bad things about Evan Skev probably padded my stats a little. It’s practically instant green.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
State your case, back it up with facts and reasonable opinions ...
Bruce Raffel
by Ampallang on Jan 22, 2012 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the shout out…add me on FB
by Evan Skev on Jan 22, 2012 12:50 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
hahahah
"And, don’t get me started on Joe Flacco," Simms continued. "Did the experts watch the game? Joe didn’t miss a throw, not one. I watched every play. Every time he had the opportunity, he hit the guy. And, he made some moves so he could complete other throws. Are these people watching? What was Joe supposed to do with Texans in his face? Throw it up and hope? Sometimes a sack is a good thing. The object is to win the game. You did."
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