Joe Flacco: A Comparison Study
by vlad755 on Jan 2, 2012 4:26 PM EST
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PrintThere's been a lot of talk about this quarterback, maybe too much talk. This post is not a rebel post, this post is, 
Joe "Cool" Flacco. (Apologies to Bono)
For a guy that has won a playoff game every year he has been in the league, and will probably continue that trend at least for this year, he sure has a lot of detractors. So I decided to compare his first four years as an NFL quarterback with some of his contemporaries that he is constantly compared to and also against some Hall of Famers for, comparison sake.
Granted, each quarterback had a unique situation when they entered the NFL, and it is probably not completely fair to mix eras. Some rode the pines for a while, some were pegged to be the starter from Day 1, some got injured, some got traded so I agree this is not the best possible true comparison, but it does shed some light onto how good Joe really is, given a lot of circumstances and variables. And for those of you who scream, "Unfair!" because someone didn't play very much early in their career, Flacco had the starting job thrust upon him from the start. He could have pulled a Boller, and we would all be lamenting the lack of QB's for the Ravens. But he didn't, and we are all better because of it -which I believe is a credit, not a detraction, to Joe.
The table below shows the QB's and relevant stats I used.
|
QB |
Rating |
Wins |
Playoff Wins |
Comp |
Att |
Pct |
Yards |
TD |
Int |
FL |
|
86 |
44 |
4+ |
1190 |
1958 |
61 |
13816 |
80 |
46 |
14 |
|
|
Ryan |
88.4 |
43 |
1? |
1232 |
2022 |
61 |
14238 |
95 |
46 |
9 |
|
Big Ben |
92.5 |
39 |
5 |
908 |
1436 |
63 |
11673 |
84 |
54 |
8 |
|
Brees |
83.2 |
21 |
0 |
802 |
1309 |
61 |
8772 |
56 |
38 |
5 |
|
Brady |
86.1 |
37 |
3 |
954 |
1544 |
62 |
10333 |
69 |
38 |
12 |
|
Rodgers |
91.8 |
6 |
0 |
376 |
595 |
63 |
4367 |
29 |
14 |
6 |
|
Favre |
82.4 |
28 |
2 |
983 |
1575 |
62 |
10412 |
70 |
53 |
7 |
|
Peyton |
85.1 |
32 |
0 |
1357 |
2226 |
61 |
16418 |
111 |
81 |
9 |
|
Montana |
87.9 |
18 |
3 |
713 |
1130 |
63 |
8064 |
52 |
32 |
7 |
|
Marino |
95.2 |
41 |
3 |
1249 |
2050 |
61 |
16177 |
142 |
67 |
18 |
These are all existing Hall of Fame quarterbacks, or will be, except for Joe and Ryan, whose careers are too young to make any judgments such as that. Joe has more wins than anybody and will probably catch Big Ben in terms of playoff wins. Everybody downplays this, and there is a reasonable argument about wins being more correlated with the overall team, but you cannot deny that Joe has had a hand in those 44 wins for his team.
His QB rating is right in the middle of this pack (with Marino, Big Ben and Rodgers being the outliers). Notice that Joe's QB rating is very close to Brady's, and better than Peyton's, Favre's and Brees' -who also had Cam as his coach the early part of his career. Hmm...
Joe's percentage is right in line with everybody else's; or within a percentage point or two. Over the course of a season, that amounts to maybe one additional completion per game. Yes, Ryan has more yards, but Flacco is ahead of everybody else (including Big Ben) save for Peyton and Marino who are the outliers for this particular stat.
Further, you cannot discount Joe's durability. Big Ben has missed time due to injures/suspension, same with Ryan, Brady, Montana, as have a few others on this list. Because of Joe's durability and smart off the field decision making, the Ravens have had one of the most stable quarterback situations, save Peyton and Favre.
All of these QB's have won a SuperBowl except for Marino, Ryan and Joe. Flacco is tracking right with these guys, and in many areas is ahead of where some of these guys were at this point in their respective careers. I see multiple SuperBowl's in the Raven's future and a stellar career for Joe. As other folks have mentioned, Joe will be a Raven's fixture for the next ten years, and we couldn't ask for anything better.
The opinions posted here are those of the administrator of this blog and his loyal readers. They are in no way official comments from the team, and should not be misconstued as such, even though he thinks he could do just as well or even a better job!
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Comments
It amazes me how people are so quick to forget
what it was like to not have stability at the QB position. Joe is not a liability like the previous Ravens QB’s; he’s actually an asset. If you have been following the Ravens for a while (or even football in general), you should know that stability at the QB position is essential for a franchise to progress.
Even if we win the Super Bowl this year, I really hope we finally get rid of Cam. I think we’d all love to see how Flacco plays with the guidance of a Norv Turner or a Greg Olson. Let’s get a coordinator that the players actually like!
I just asked Coach Harbaugh that same question
today at the team’s Press Conference and he wholeheartedly agreed. I’ll post his response on Tuesday.
aka 'Rexx'
About stability or Cam Cameron?
I’m guessing stability which is kind of obvious because Harbaugh doesn’t seem like the type to throw his offensive coordinator under a bus like that.
by Roa on Jan 2, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
No Norv!! He’s just Cam v.2. Actually, jazz20 made a suggestion on another thread that Mike Sherman might be a good choice. With just a cursory look at his history (and successes – as opposed to Cam’s record of failure), he might be worth a shot. And we should definitely bring Zorn back as QB coach, if not OC.
Cam Cameron - the creator of the Prevent Offense™, and best-selling author of "150 Short Runs Into the Line on 3rd and 10"
re: Big Ben - "God can have his soul. His ass is mine." - Terrell Suggs
by GrumpyOldBird on Jan 2, 2012 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, yes and hell yes. Absolutely on Zorn. Flacco had his best year last year, with maybe less to work with. If Cam is kept on, we should still get Zorn….in some capacity. I don’t care if Cam and Zorn hate eachother or if Cam thought Zorn was “stepping on his kool-aid”, Flacco is even better with Zorn. I don’t know if he’s suited for OC just yet but he should at least be QB coach. Joe was publicly pissed when he was let go and that says a lot.
"Don't throw it, don't throw it, don't throw it. I know y'all going to throw it, they going to throw it anyway. I wouldn't throw it. Don't do it." - Ed Reed
You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say Six, I say Sweep.
by WestminsterRaven on Jan 2, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
Although it would be cool to have Zorn return as a QB coach,
I don’t think that’s realistic to come back to a team that fired you because of a difference in “offensive philosophy.” In any case, why is Norv Turner a bad fit? He knows how to get receivers open for his QB, is great with line shifting and motioning, likes to utilize the run, and has produced top 10 offenses. I’m curious
Not a Zorn fan
and Norv has been a solid OC in the past, although I’d prefer to pilfer one from the Saints, Packers or Pats.
aka 'Rexx'
He knows how to get EXTREMELY tall receivers open. We don’t have those. All the things you credit him for are the same things one could credit Cam for when he was there as OC. And, as has been proven, any success with the Chargers under Cam and Norv were more a matter of the players in place rather than coaching genius. It’s the same thing as Billick in Minn. Genius as long as the right players were there and the breaks went his way. As far as Norv – 6 game losing streak – and that’s just without LT and a partial Gates.
He’s too close to Cam in philosophy and practice. If we make a change (which I highly doubt), I don’t want a Cam clone.
Cam Cameron - the creator of the Prevent Offense™, and best-selling author of "150 Short Runs Into the Line on 3rd and 10"
re: Big Ben - "God can have his soul. His ass is mine." - Terrell Suggs
by GrumpyOldBird on Jan 2, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
Totally Agree
I will say that when I bring up these very same points to detractors the usual response is the following: Joe came into a system with an all-pro running back and a ferocious defense. And I have to admit, this gives me pause. In the end, it’s an unfair critique because it puts Joe in a position where he’s never allowed to take credit for the team’s success, and I happen to think he deserves a lot of credit.
I can’t recall the surrounding circumstances for all of those QBs in their first 4 years. But a cursory glance suggests that Big Ben also came into a situation with a stellar team defense and Montana also had excellent pieces in place at RB and maybe on defense as well. Did any of those other QBs have real stability/threats at the RB position or a killer defense like Joe has had? Big fan of Joe. Just curious what thoughts others might have on this.
Four full NFL seasons
and 64 regular season starts without a single game missed. How many QBs can say that in history, much less just this year?
aka 'Rexx'
I agree
Nowadays, with the pass happy league, unless you throw for 350+ yards, you won’t get any recognition. Joe is a great fit for our team. If you look at this past game, Flacco played great, Ray Rice had a career day, our TE’s were spectacular, and yet we only won by one possession? If you look at Flacco’s comments, it bothers him that they don’t go for the jugular and finish the game up with offense. This falls on Cam’s shoulders and is why fans have a problem with him. I think with a proven offensive-minded OC, we can be a top 10 offense.
What we need is an OC that builds his system to fit our personnel.
Preferably a system that is not so reliant on the success on one aspect of the game-plan and
allows for in-game adjustments without totally revealing our play-calling.
Cam is not that OC, he forced his deep threat oriented passing offense on our slow receivers for years. The system he runs is dependent on run game to set up the play action and the only in-game adjustment I’ve seen from him is switching to the shotgun.
Well,
I am giving Ryan the benefit of the doubt in that he may win his first this year, ergo the “1?”.
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
who do they play again?
whoever it is, it’s on the road, so it’s hard to favor them. Home-Dome teams don’t travel well.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
They go to NY to play the Giants.
You come at the king, you best not miss.
by organizedchaos52 on Jan 3, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
I've been pushing this idea all over the internet
Forgive me but I’m just going to copy-paste a comment I posted elsewhere:
Flacco suffers from what I call "Eli Syndrome". He does not have a commanding presence, he looks goofy, and he seems relatively non-athletic when he moves. Perceptions will always be handicapped by this, and Flacco will likely never be "a man’s man" that other players like to follow or like to look to for leadership. Basically, he’s a big dork (as is Eli).
He’s still very good though, he has done well in potentially game-winning situations, and the Ravens have had far more trouble with receivers dropping passes than they have had with Flacco making bad throws.
by tvon on Jan 2, 2012 6:23 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
haha good point
As long as he brings home a championship (or more) to Baltimore, I really don’t care what people say. Just bring home that Lombardi!
Flacco is already a "man's-man!"
Any guy who can take the pounding he has for four full years, get up and never miss a start is a “man” by my standards!
aka 'Rexx'
Its all from that facial hair
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 3, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
This is a very interesting study. While I have taken to looking more at QBR+ (a nifty stat i found on football-reference) because it adjusts to how QBs compare to the league average, this does tell a lot about Flacco. He is having a down year, but even in this high octane passing league, he is a very good young QB.
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I just realized that Flacco is arguably the player under the most pressure in this upcoming playoffs.
Even if Tom Brady never wins another playoff game, he'll still have 3 rings.
His legacy is set. Flacco’s just getting started and needs to get his first!
He never won a SB after the Spygate scandal. That puts a small asterisk next to his name in my book.
daytime commentator. night time ninja.
I get what you’re saying, but the spygate thing reflects worse on Beeeeeeeeeeeelichik, than his players. Don’t forget, Brady also has a lot of individual records, milestones, blah blah under his belt as well.
Belicheat was stealing defensive signals for Brady and the offenses benefit when they won all three of their SBs. Maybe Brady didn’t know about it, but it definitely benefited him. Why else would Belicheat risk 500 G’s and a first round pick if it didn’t?
daytime commentator. night time ninja.
You're totally right. It did benefit Brady regardless of whether he knew or not.
What I’m saying is if Brady loses in the first round of the playoffs and Flacco loses in the first round of the playoffs, who’ll get more heat from their hometown and national media? The media loves Brady and is at best, indifferent to Flacco. All I’m saying is Flacco has more pressure to win now than does Brady. You don’t think so?
Oh, I was commenting more on Brady’s legacy rather than who has the most pressure this post season.
You’re right. Flacco’s legacy can swing a lot more than Bradys in regards to this post seasons play.
(Romo would have had the most pressure if they had made the playoffs.)
People in Atlanta probably think Matt Ryan has the most pressure. He’s never won a playoff game.
daytime commentator. night time ninja.
Gotcha!
Yeah, Brady’s legacy will probably have a few double takes when people take into consideration how valuable it is to know an opponent’s game plan and plan against it.
In any case, screw Brady! Hope he keeps his post-season losing streak alive (and while we’re at it, throw Matt Ryan in there too so we can stop comparing him to Flacco), and we can have home-field all the way to the Super Bowl!
Not That Compelling?
Damn, I guess my original query wasn’t that compelling. So maybe I’ll put it out there again…of the QBs on that list, did any of them step into as a good a situation as Joe in terms of having a great RB and a great defense. Does it matter? My hunch is that Joe deserves a ton of credit but that it’s also true that the wins over his first 4 years are partly due to the circumstances he walked into.
a great RB and a great defense
Didn’t the Ravens have a great RB (Jamal) and great defense between our SB year (2000) and Joe’s rookie year (2008)? Except for the one good year we got out of McNair in 2006, the key missing ingredient to sustained success was at QB. Anyone want to go back to the “glory” years of Grbac, Wright, and Boller?
Flacco is not perfect and probably is not a HoF QB. But he is good enough to win a SB or three and he sure as hell is better than most alternatives.
"the croaking raven doth bellow for revenge."
Hamlet, William Shakespeare
To be fair to Grbac,
he had no RB. Unless you count Terry Allen and Jason Brookins.
You come at the king, you best not miss.
by organizedchaos52 on Jan 3, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
Grbac
With a healthy Jamal Lewis, we repeat. I have no doubt.
But that would have been Grbac’s last year as he was obviously done by the end.
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
finally! I have been saying tha for years about Grbac. The guy wasnt a bad QB, but he got stuck in a crappy situation and had a huge falling out with the team after that season (for whatever reason). Had we had Jamal in there, we absolutely repeat without too much trouble and I think Grbac stays on another year
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 3, 2012 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure there have been teams like that in the past across the league where a QB walked into a good situation
Yet, Flacco is the first to make the playoffs four straight years and win a game in each. I understand what you’re saying, but the fact is the situation has presented itself to QBs before, but for whatever reason, Flacco has got the job done while the others didn’t. The Jets are a good contemporary to look at. Sanchez had a great defense and solid running game, but didn’t get in this year. History only cares about what you did. Sanchez didn’t, Flacco did.
In Terms Of Defense
And Running Game, during Flacco’s rookie year, Willis McGahee was the veteran RB with rookie Ray Rice, and a rookie head coach and brand new OC -don’t forget that. The offense was severely overhauled Joe’s rookie season, Willis’ role was greatly reduced which means Joe had to relay upon a rookie, albeit a very good one (Ray Rice), for the running game. Yes, the defense was pretty good, but Joe did not have the best targets to throw to: a reliable but aging Heap, a reliable but aging Mason (who could really only run one pattern well), and then a bunch of others…
Did he come into the worse situation possible a la Peyton and his rookie season? No, but the 2008 Ravens exceed all, including “experts’”, expectations by going all the way to the AFCG -nobody, and I mean nobody, thought the Ravens would achieve that kind of success with a rookie HC, a rookie QB, a rookie RB and a new OC.
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
Actually,
Ray didn’t play much his rookie year. Le’Ron ended up with the most carries. Ray had a couple of big games (Cleveland for one), but also had quite a few 6-8 carries, 20 yard games. Then, he sat out the end of the season (he played 13 of the 19 games). The big change came the year after, when McClain stopped getting carries, and they were given to Rice instead (his breakout year, McGahee’s 14 TD year). Your other about points about starting rookies hold though.
The numbers (average carries per game):
McClain: 14.5
McGahee: 13.1
Rice: 8.2
You come at the king, you best not miss.
by organizedchaos52 on Jan 3, 2012 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
Flacco's value to Ravens
I became a Ravens (and a football) fan when I was an international student at JHU and they won the SuperBowl. Since I left the US in 2003 I couldn’t follow Flacco’s first 3 years very well. This year finally we got some cable channels showing NFL games and I was amazed and very surprized to see how much change Flacco brought to the Ravens. Above statistics say things about his performance but I don’t think one can appreciate his value to the Ravens if you followed the team before he joined.
Let’s take this year’s most crucial (IMHO) win, the one at Pittsburgh. Before Flacco, you will have no hope of winning a game if you need a one last TD scoring drive in a short time. Ravens never won games like that, never had a quarterback to pull a drive like that. When it is the last two minutes the game is already won because of the great defense or there is only hope if you are behind but only need a FG. So I was very delighted when Ravens won. I saw those kinds of last minute wins at other games but not from my Ravens.
Similarly this last week’s win over Bengals had a pattern I don’t remember much before Flacco. That’s jumping to an early lead and protecting it in critical games. Early leads was a rarity since we needed the defense to work its magic to score after a turnover or need a special teams play. You expect that to happen the whole game and you never knew when or if it will happen. But here we are, a very critical game, an away game against an worthy opponent who also need to win the game and Ravens won it by jumping to an early lead.
These kinds of things are hard to capture in statistics and only long time Ravens fans can fully appreciate these plusses brought by Flacco.
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by pembeci on Jan 3, 2012 7:36 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Very Well
Stated!
Welcome to the Beatdown!
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
If I had more time, I’d look up winning percentage, yards per attempt, yards per completion, yards per game, and games played. Those stats combined with the ones Vlad listed above would give me a little more perspective.
Either way, nice work Vlad. Joe has done very well in his first four years.
daytime commentator. night time ninja.
Flacco-Cameron
If we dont get rid of Cameron, he’ll ruin Flacco. Cam is a failure, whit over complicated play books. He has this kid with phenominal skills so confused he looks like a dork most of the time. He always performs under pressure in the 2 minute type drill or when a no huddle offense. Look it up. This kid needs a play book of maybe 15-20 plays and 5-6 checkoffs when he looks at the defense. By not letting these great defenses change personnel to fit down and distance, he will succeed more in the passing game, and it will add to the effectiveness of Rice. He wont have so much to learn and he will be more in the game. Payton Manning for years has run the most vanila offense in the NFL and he is going to the hall. He lived off of the hurry up. This kid is built for it too. Fire Cameron and give this kid a chance.
This kid needs a play book of maybe 15-20 plays and 5-6 checkoffs when he looks at the defense.
Not sure what you mean here. Most NFL playbooks are 10 times that big, and need to be.
I agree with firing Cameron, but not really with your reasons why. Welcome aboard though, enjoy the debate.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
it shows he had more wins that BB..
But, how many more games did he play in to achieve that? BTW, BB made to to 80wins FASTER than anyone else except for Brady, stabler, staubach and I dont remember who else..Plus, BB made it to championship games back to back in his first two year, winning a SB…Yeah, he sucked in the SB, but was brilliant in the playoffs..
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This isn't a "BB vs JF" argument
it’s merely meant to show how absurd it is that people would even question whether or not this guy is a franchise-caliber QB.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
You think that’s ridiculous? There’s an article on the hack sportswriters network that basically lumps Flacco, Sanchez, and Tebow all together.
What’s even more ridiculous than that? nycsteeler is never positive about any of our players or our team unless she is making a statement like the one up there on someone else’s blog or a “ask a…” thread
Strange indeed
This is the problem with the Flacco hate, people don’t really know who he is as a person. - Mr. Malor. Crazy Raven fan/possible stalker.
It smells like seven layers....that beaver eats Taco Bell.
btw hack sportswriters network = Yahoo
This is the problem with the Flacco hate, people don’t really know who he is as a person. - Mr. Malor. Crazy Raven fan/possible stalker.
It smells like seven layers....that beaver eats Taco Bell.
no kidding. Their finished product isn’t much better than Bleacher Report (BAL_Hawk’s contributions notwithstanding) which doesn’t say much for the people Yahoo actually PAYS to write for them.
Can you link me the Flacco=Sanchez=Tebow article? I love getting pissed over stuff like this. It justifies the anger I’d otherwise be characterized as an asshole for.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Saw this link on the SBNation Feed on the right hand side of the page. Just sad. Yahoo is a joke. Flacco is another class compared to these guys. Hell, even Mark Sanchez doesn’t deserve to be compared to Tebow.
by Roa on Jan 3, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
her interviewer
really only compared Sanchez to Tebow, and really only in terms of how they can sometimes help their teams win despite posting poor numbers. She added Flacco into the mix since he too, is a boon to his team despite his fantasy numbers being poor. But still a pretty poor article, one would have to agree.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
That article only mentions Flacco in passing. It uses him in the title and thats about it. It goes on to talk about how Sanchez can’t hit the ground if he was aiming for it and how Tebow can’t throw at all. It only briefly mentions Flacco’s completion % this year and doesnt go into how we are completely revamping our offense to be a deep threat all of a sudden and how a drop in comp% is very common when you transition an offense like that (ie: the Steelers just a few years ago had a nice dip in offensive production and winning because of that change from a run to a passing offense)
I really wanted to comment on that article and bash the writer regardless of how much I hate seeing that on Yahoo.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 3, 2012 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, when I typed that, I hadn’t looked that deep in to it. Normally I wouldn’t just go by a headline, but….that was a Yahoo piece. I did notice they just named him in passing, but I still found it strange that they seemed to put those three names in a cluster.
I have my own criticisms of Flacco, (less than before, to be sure) but to say Flacco is in the same “next tier” as Sanchez or Tebow is ridiculous. I do believe in the tier thing, and I’d say top tear are the 5-6 best. I wouldn’t but Flacco there. He’d be the “next tier” to me. But unless you’re just saying “all the rest”, no way Sanchez is in that group. the Dirty is bottom five imo.
This is the problem with the Flacco hate, people don’t really know who he is as a person. - Mr. Malor. Crazy Raven fan/possible stalker.
It smells like seven layers....that beaver eats Taco Bell.
Sanchez on his best day is as good as Flacco on a mediocre day. He showed it this last week when he couldnt complete easy dump offs or hit his WR in stride. He’s consistently given weapons around him to use and he can’t find even the smallest of success in stats. Now that the team is in freefall mode, I expect Rex to look for a flash in the pan guy this year to try and save his job. Sanchez will be behind Boller on someone’s depth chart in 2 years.
Flacco is a top 10 QB if he can get a gameplan together to assist him in any way. My biggest critique on Flacco is that he can’t rise above the problems of Cam and the Oline at times and he has his crappy games when either of those don’t play reasonably well. In order to become a top 5 guy, he needs to elevate past that type of stuff like a Ben or Rodgers can do. However, I think some of that will come with a new OC that can gameplan around the Ravens strengths as well as the opponent’s weakness.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 3, 2012 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
well, you have the same problem we do. It doesn’t appear our OC’s are going anywhere. I’m not an Arians basher like so many at BTSC, but I do think he has to bear some responsibility for our offensive ineptitude despite having 3 really good receivers and 2 solid ones. On top of having one pretty good RB and one that’s “legendary”. I know the O line problems are there, but other great offenses have had O line problems too..
Oh well…just gotta enjoy the wins and hope they keep coming (both of us)
This is the problem with the Flacco hate, people don’t really know who he is as a person. - Mr. Malor. Crazy Raven fan/possible stalker.
It smells like seven layers....that beaver eats Taco Bell.
The only other offense that does well that has no Oline is Green Bay. Trying to compare your offense to them is pretty hard to do man. You guys do fairly well for the most part and some of the issues are because Ben relies too heavily on moving around to make a play.
A new Oline and you guys have a top 5 offense.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 8:21 AM EST up reply actions
Kinda surprised that you say GB is the elite O without the O line. I would have said Pats…they’ve had injuries and replacements this year. GB’s was great until two weeks ago. They got injuries…then they played awesome afterward…
As far as the issues being Ben moving around, I don’t think it’s that. I think it’s his refusal to get rid of it when nothing is there, and his insistence on ALWAYS trying to make something out of nothing. The moving around has been by and large, a good thing…it’s his stubbornness that ruins that good thing.
On the O line…Yeah..they suck at times, but sometimes, I’m honestly conflicted on that (not this year) Are they really that bad? Or is he just making them look bad with his style of play?
Oh well…wins matter..the rest don’t.
This is the problem with the Flacco hate, people don’t really know who he is as a person. - Mr. Malor. Crazy Raven fan/possible stalker.
It smells like seven layers....that beaver eats Taco Bell.
The Pats can still muster decent pass protection. GB has no offensive line and Aaron Rodgers is usually running for his life on most plays. He just so happens to have the best WRs in the game that know how to get open.
That is what I meant about Ben. He always has to make something happen and a lot of that comes from running around and forcing balls to places they don’t need to be. While its killed us Ravens in the past few years, its starting to bite him in the ass now. Ben is just making the Oline look better, they are seriously that bad when you play a team with a good pass rush.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
He just so happens to have the best WRs in the game that know how to get open.
People say the same thing about New Orleans, and they said the same thing about the Colts a few years ago. In reality, it was a QB and his receiving corps being on the same page and having had several years to develop as a unit, functioning in perfect synergy.
Take Jordy Nelson and put him on an average team and people won’t talk about how great he is anymore. The Packers are great because they are more than the sum of their parts due to the incredible chemistry they have there.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Very true and It truly has to do with them having all the people they do. Jordy Nelson + all the other weapons they have mean that they do great things together. You also can’t undervalue the playcalling and its effect on the way Rodgers is able to throw the ball.
But overall, Rodgers has an easier time throwing than someone like Flacco because of his WRs are able to get open pretty quick. He does do well in spite of his Oline, but his WRs getting open quickly is a huge reason that they succeed.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
i don't disagree
but I think that if you swapped all of our receivers, theirs would look a lot worse in Baltimore and ours would look a lot better in Green Bay (after a few weeks of getting acclimated of course).
Now that’s partially because Rodgers is just plain better than Flacco, and also partially because Cam Cameron is so inferior at making the most of his receivers. But I think that would be the case (as pointless of an argument as that is).
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Hah, I just blame Cam Cameron for most of that actually, but I don’t disagree there.
My original point was that the only other team aside from the Steelers with the same quality Oline and a QB that relies on his feet to avoid sacks/ make plays in the passing game would be GB. And that comparing the Pitt offense to GB is a little hard to do even on Pitt’s best days.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
it was a QB and his receiving corps being on the same page and having had several years to develop as a unit, functioning in perfect synergy.
that statement also proves why Joe Flacco and his wideouts look so average at times because they are not on the same page like the packers quarterback is with his wideouts.
definitely
the best two passing offenses this season are the two offenses with the most continuity. After that, you have Detroit and New England, both of whom have QBs throwing to at least two targets they are very familiar with.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Thats not really true about GB offensive line
The offensive line has done a good job for the most part but has been ravaged by injuries throughout the season. Rodgers had 36 sacks to Brady’s 32, so I dont see much of a difference there.
by LombardiBackToGB on Jan 4, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
The reason the Oline isn’t playing great really isn’t the issue. I know GB has had a ton of injuries on that line for some time now, but Rodgers is usually dodging players left and right back there. Rodgers also isn’t Brady either. Brady doesn’t have the feet to get away from sacks like Rodgers does, so some of that really speaks to Rodgers’ athleticism.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Rodgers has always been the same athlete
but had back to back 50-sack seasons, so he isn’t superman. This season the O-Line has been much better.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
I completely agree. The line has gotten a lot better, but a majority of the reason Rodgers hasnt spent the past few years on IR comes to his ability to get away from pressure. I’d say his line is worse than the Steelers, yet GB does a better job of turning those breakdowns into big plays than anyone else. Part of that is because of Rodgers and part of that is because of the playcalling and WRs getting open quicker to help him out.
But back to the original point, I don’t really think that Arians is horrible. I think most of that has to do with the Oline of the Steelers not giving Ben any time and him forcing the ball when he should get rid of it. I think most Ravens fans would trade Arians for Cam any day of the week
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
come on man…GB’s line is worse than ours? They have some really good people there, including a guy that is considered by some to be the best in the business. (Sitton) and their all world sophomore Bulaga…
Clifton is still Clifton.
They have no one on their line named Scott, Kemoatu, Essex, or Legursky, or Foster. I’m sorry, but you’re nuts if you think GB’s O line is worse than ours.
As far as Arians..I don’t know…I’m not a basher like so many on our board, but I do have some concerns…either way, both me and my Ravens friends have agreed for a long time now..Cam is a detriment to the team
This is the problem with the Flacco hate, people don’t really know who he is as a person. - Mr. Malor. Crazy Raven fan/possible stalker.
It smells like seven layers....that beaver eats Taco Bell.
You guys are just so hurt that it is killing you. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one though. True on Cam.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 5, 2012 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Does "legendary"
mean Redman has beaten Halo on the highest difficulty setting?
To be honest, I’m pretty confused where that came from. Did he have a Wietersesque college career?
You come at the king, you best not miss.
by organizedchaos52 on Jan 4, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Lol…yep..he beat Halo
I don’t understand either. He’s just a “fan favorite” It’s probably because the first thing he really did in the NFL was score the GW td against you guys. Also..he has this crazy ability to be completely surrounded, look like he’s being pushed backwards, and still fall forward while carrying everyone for a 3 or 4 yard game.
As of late though…he’s the guy that fumbled twice against the poop stains.
This is the problem with the Flacco hate, people don’t really know who he is as a person. - Mr. Malor. Crazy Raven fan/possible stalker.
It smells like seven layers....that beaver eats Taco Bell.
My Only Rebuttal
Is that Joe was able to stay on the field and therefore able to start all 64 regular season games so far. Like I mentioned before, I believe that should be to Joe’s credit that he has not missed a lot of time due to injures or whatever.
Never the intent to take anything away from Big Ben, just trying to show how Joe measures up and how close he really is. Big Ben’s rating and number of playoff wins is just ridiculous the first four years. But Joe should match the playoff wins, and has more yards and regular season victories, and is in Ben’s neighborhood for TD’s and percentage.
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
BTW, BB made to to 80wins FASTER than anyone else except for Brady, stabler, staubach and I dont remember who else
Don’t worry Flacco will pass them all shortly.
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
Given how mediocre they have looked this past year, I’d say pretty fast. I’d already take Reed out completely since he has been ineffective most days and down right horrible on others. I seriously think that Ray is going to only play on running situations next year so they can get away from being reliant on him.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 3, 2012 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
erroneous on both counts!
Ray would NEVER accept a diminished role, as he has repeatedly stated, and taking Reed out now would be folly. The impact that the mere threat of Ed Reed’s INTs has on an offensive gameplan is undeniable. No QB coach is going to tell his guy, “Reed is washed up. Throw right at him.”
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
by jackmca on Jan 4, 2012 7:19 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Just because Ray doesn’t want a diminished role doesn’t mean it won’t happen. The guy has been a liability in pass coverage all year long and has missed quite a few tackles. He’s not done as a LB, but he absolutely is done from a coverage standpoint. Not to mention we need to get the younger guys put in there more often so when Ray leaves in a year or 2, we have guys that are used to handling the workload.
As far as Reed goes, I’d be willing to bet if you looked closer at it, you could tell that they are throwing in his direction, especially towards the end of the season. You can’t throw it right to him just like really any Safety in the game, but hitting a WR in front of him has been gold for teams this year. He misses tackles, plays out of position. A perfect example is that almost TD against Cincy that he was 5 yards behind the WR in the endzone. He wasn’t in any position to do anything on that play and would have watched as the ball was caught for a TD. That isn’t the old Ed Reed. That threat hasn’t been there all season long and I’m seeing Reed running into the picture late when passes are caught a lot more often now. The fact is, Reed has missed tackles and looked more like Landry this year than any remote shadow of himself.
I’m also tired of the injury excuses from the guy too. Every time he has a mediocre game, you start hearing about his hip, or his shoulder or his arm or his back or his neck. Right now, Belichick would trade him for a 2nd or 3rd rounder to a stupid GM that would get 2 games out of him.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 8:32 AM EST up reply actions
That isn’t the old Ed Reed
That’s what I’ve seen too. I hate to say it..trust me. Raven or not…the guy is a legend..
I seriously think he started thinking about life after football. From a human perspective, I wish Troy would too. What I’ve seen from Reed…the thought that his next neck injury could not only end his career, but ruin/end his life, is in the front of his mind at all times.
If that’s true..he should retire. I’m not a Browns fan, I don’t get off on winning teams having injured players. He’s played well a couple games, but to me (from an outsiders perspective) he’s not Ed Reed…
That said, I wouldn’t be harsh on the guy, he’s a warrior…he’s wired to “tough it out” and not doing that would kill him..
This is the problem with the Flacco hate, people don’t really know who he is as a person. - Mr. Malor. Crazy Raven fan/possible stalker.
It smells like seven layers....that beaver eats Taco Bell.
Oh I’m not harsh on the guy, I’m just realistic about what he can and cannot do. A lot of Raven’s fans tend to ride these guys forever regardless of them being less than useful towards the end of their careers. Reed and Lewis have both had HOF caliber careers and have been great for the city and for the Ravens organization, but the time has come to seriously think about taking away some of their reps for younger more capable guys.
Unfortunately for Reed, you are probably right that his neck and hip injuries just sit at the front of his mind and he isn’t nearly as willing to tackle properly or make that leaping insane catch that made him Ed Reed. Now that those qualities appear to be gone, you have to look at him like any other player and determine if we have someone behind him or someone we can get via draft or FA that can replace him in the current lineup and I think we can and should. Will anyone we pick up be like the old Ed Reed? Absolutely not, but the current Ed Reed isn’t like the old Ed Reed and he’s increasingly becoming a liability in the passing game and missing tackles.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
We have to operate in reality here.
Just because Ray doesn’t want a diminished role doesn’t mean it won’t happen.
Yes, it does. End of story. You don’t have a 16-year veteran who is the face of your franchise and in many ways your city, and a first-ballot HOFer, and then bench him in any way unless he OKs it. That would be a HUGE mistake and Harbaugh would risk the locker room by doing that. Maybe in Madden, when his overall rating has declined to a 79, the computer will bench him, but not in real life.
Same goes for Reed. Moreover, you’re completely discounting the “QB of the defense” roles that each of these guys play. Zbikowski and Nakamura can’t hold a candle to the knowledge and leadership that Reed brings to the defensive backfield, especially when tutoring a young Jimmy Smith who has been prone to some costly errors this season.
The time has come to seriously think about taking away some of their reps for younger more capable guys.
For Reed, I totally disagree. I think he should be back there regardless of down, distance, or game situation. I understand his capabilities have diminished, but you lose a lot more by benching him than you do by playing him. For Lewis, people have been saying for a few years now that he’s a liability in coverage, but who is really an improvement over him? We already put BA in next to Ray, and you can’t tell me Jameel McClain is leaps and bounds better than Lewis in pass coverage; it’s just not the case.
But again, it almost doesn’t matter how far they decline. They will play every snap they want to until they decide they don’t. That’s just how it works.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Yes, it does. End of story. You don’t have a 16-year veteran who is the face of your franchise and in many ways your city, and a first-ballot HOFer, and then bench him in any way unless he OKs it.
This is what I hate about this team. We let players dictate how we do things. Lewis will never want to come out of the game because he’s a competitor, but at some point you have to look at him and say “Sorry Ray, but McClain is twice the athlete you are right now and he can pick up the mental part better by playing more”. We also now have a precedence for releasing veterans that mean a lot to the organization in Heap, Mason, and Gregg. While none of those guys are as accomplished as Reed or Ray, Heap especially was a gold mine in terms of fan support. Letting him go shows that we are able to fully deal with business as business. For that matter, we easily let Ray take a tour around the league just a few years ago as an ego check. Ozzie and Harbaugh should do what is needed in that department regardless of Ray’s feelings.
I think most people would agree that the games Ray missed, there was no drop off in terms of production from the next guys. If anything it made everyone elevate their game and the entire defense played better during those games than in any other games this year. Both Ray and Reed are students of the game and by reducing their roles slightly, you don’t lose that. They are still on the sidelines screaming out calls and taking guys aside to teach them, you just allow them to get more rest and be at their max longer.
At some point with both guys you have to look at them and push them off the field. They are leaders and they know so much, but they can’t get the job done as well and the people behind them can do just as good while learning and getting better. I think its the time to diminish their roles at least a bit.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
We let players dictate how we do things. Lewis will never want to come out of the game because he’s a competitor, but at some point you have to look at him and say "Sorry Ray, but McClain is twice the athlete you are right now and he can pick up the mental part better by playing more".
This team? That’s life bro. This is a senior guy who has earned the right to make those kinds of decisions. You risk organizational stability by upsetting that balance. There’s no coach in the league—save MAYBE Bellicheck—who has the credibility in the locker room to bench Ray Lewis or Ed Reed. And that’s a caps-lock MAYBE on Bellicheck.
We also now have a precedence for releasing veterans that mean a lot to the organization in Heap, Mason, and Gregg. While none of those guys are as accomplished as Reed or Ray, Heap especially was a gold mine in terms of fan support. Letting him go shows that we are able to fully deal with business as business.
Releasing Heap and benching Lewis are totally different beasts. There is really no comparison. You can deal with business as business with Todd Heap, but business is no longer business with Ray Lewis. He has paid his dues, and he didn’t come back to us and sign that so hotly-contested final contract with us to get benched in the middle of it. There would be hell to pay.
Yes, they let Ray test the market, but that was allowing him his rights as a free agent rather than dictating him his rights as a player and technically an employee. You don’t play that card with a player like Ray, it would destabilize everything. Moreover, we let him test the market with the full knowledge that there wasn’t ever anyone out there who was capable of offering what we were going to offer, and we needed to let him see that in order for his price to come down a bit.
Ozzie and Harbaugh should do what is needed in that department regardless of Ray’s feelings.
That is just not how things work man. You touch that third rail and watch everything go straight to shit. You don’t even go there. You have to remember that a big reason the team embraced Harbaugh so early on was because Ray Lewis lead the way and embraced Harbaugh. He would be biting the hand that fed him. The only person senior to Ray Lewis in the reality of the Ravens organization is Ozzie Newsome—the very guy who let him test the market and then accepted him back when his asking price dropped. Not Harbaugh. Not even close.
At some point with both guys you have to look at them and push them off the field.
Both of these guys are already openly talking about retirement, and they’re both first-ballot Hall of Famers. Do you really end their careers by denying them the dignity of taking themselves off the field? They’ve both always said they would hang it up when they couldn’t live up to their standards. Don’t you trust them to decide when that is? I know Harbaugh does, so I’m not really worried about it.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
They’ve both always said they would hang it up when they couldn’t live up to their standards. Don’t you trust them to decide when that is?
No. These guys are/were the best at what they do because they believe in themselves unquestionably. The most obvious example of this is Brett Favre. If Ray needs to come out for third down, Pagano or Harbs will have to make him. He will never do it himself. No player does.
And I’m not saying Ray does need to come out.(The TV angle doesn’t show what he is exactly doing/covering 9 times out of 10).
daytime commentator. night time ninja.
He will never do it himself. No player does.
But they do retire. Sometimes, before they’re too old to play.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
"Sorry Ray, but McClain is twice the athlete you are right now and he can pick up the mental part better by playing more"
This is also a completely baseless statement. McClain may be quicker than Lewis right now, but he is by no means the better linebacker. And he’s no world-beater in pass coverage either.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
All of these statements are ultimately baseless Jackmca. They are all just opinions from a fan after the regular season closed out.
McClain may not be the option to replace Ray, but we don’t really know since we haven’t seen him too much during the season in that role. It also isn’t just pass coverage that Ray has faltered at. He’s missed open field tackles, been juked out and has been run by at times.
Don’t be surprised to see him seeing the bench more on 3rd downs next season. We need to start grooming our other guys to replace him and the perfect start for that is by having someone else step up in 3rd down situations and start taking some of the responsibility. As I just posted below, I am not the only person thinking this.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Ray is not getting benched. He either retires or is in a full time role. No chance Harbaugh would ever tell Ray he’s sitting out on 3rd down.
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
Harbs has told Ray to come out. He only does this when we’re blowing people out, but it happens. Ray will never come out on his own.
daytime commentator. night time ninja.
totally different context. We’re talking about taking him out in a competitive situation, and having him on the sidelines wondering “what the F&%#.” The players would be asking themselves the same thing. I guarantee you there isn’t a single player on the team going, “hey, maybe we should sit this guy a little bit.” His respect level is in the stratosphere.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Agreed. Even sizzle who IMO is our best defensive player calls Ray Lewis the general and how important it is to have him in the middle and Ed behind them. Completely agree Jackmca that I don’t think a single player wants them on the sidelines and honestly may even get upset by it.
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
I agree the respect he gets ends somewhere past Saturn. Tape doesn’t lie though. The players know how well he plays. If he’s still playing like the HOF he is, everyone would get pissed if he came out. If he’s not playing up to NFL standards, guys would be pissed if he didn’t sit down. Respect will only keep a player on the field for so long.
daytime commentator. night time ninja.
They aren’t that bad yet though they just aren’t themselves which is to be expected. I don’t think Zbi is going to give us more than Reed does now and I don’t think Ellerbe will give us more than Ray can now.
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
but your comment about tape just isn’t true. I’m telling you bro, there isn’t a player on that team that wants Ray or Reed on the sideline. They want those leaders on the field, with them. I promise you. I guarantee you.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
I’m really not commenting on Ray or Reed. They’re probably both still playing very well since we’re 3rd overall in defense.
daytime commentator. night time ninja.
If he’s still playing like the HOF he is, everyone would get pissed if he came out. If he’s not playing up to NFL standards, guys would be pissed if he didn’t sit down.
No idea who you cold possibly be talking about here besides Ray or Reed.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Ray was the example. I was commenting in reply to what you guys said about players being upset if a guy like Ray or Reed was not on the field. It was more of a general point I was trying to make about players only care production on the field.
I got a little too hopped on cold medicine yesterday, and went on too much of a tangent. effing flu.
daytime commentator. night time ninja.
As I just posted below, I am not the only person thinking this.
Not saying you are. People have said this for a while. People also were saying earlier this season that they were “worried about Ray Rice” and how maybe we needed to see Ricky Williams get some more reps.
Stars play for a reason. They step up when it matters most.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
I’m just saying that I think next year we see 1 of those guys have their roles reduced a bit.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
I personally think they’ll both retire. But the only way I see either one of them accepting a reduced role would be if we were to draft a clear, high-round, successor to them for them to tutor and allow that young player to take their place on certain downs. And even that, frankly, I do not see happening.
Now, I think Ozzie can have a lot to do with whether or not they retire. But as I’ve said before, this really comes down to what their conditions with Ozzie are understood to be, because Ozzie is the only guy in this organization who is truly senior to either one of them.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
That is a good point. Maybe instead of a reduced role, we force them into retirement a little earlier than they want. I do agree that Ozzie has that ability with both guys to basically sit them down and have “the talk” with them.
It would be bad PR to cut either guy, so I never really see that happening, but who knows after we cut a fan favorite in Heap. It’ll be an interesting offseason if neither of them retire… thats for sure.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
All of these statements are ultimately baseless Jackmca. They are all just opinions from a fan after the regular season closed out.
That’s kindof a cop-out. “Ray Lewis has potential as a cancer researcher,” is my baseless opinion from a fan after the regular season closed out. Like Bruce said, state your case, and back it up with facts and reasonable opinions. Jameel McClain being “twice the athlete” that Ray Lewis is right now is a bit much. A better athlete? Okay. Let’s back it off to that, while acknowledging that Ray is still the better overall player.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Jackmca, I have easily said reasonable opinions. To say that my opinions are baseless is true, but just like anything anyone else here says unless it comes directly from the team. My opinions on this matter have have enough thought and feel to them that they make sense and could easily happen. The only thing against my opinion is that the team is so tied into Ray that they wouldn’t do it…. not that they shouldn’t do it. So I’ll clearly explain my opinion out so it makes sense below.
Jameel McClain is the better athlete out of him and Ray. I also will say that given a little playing time, he will get a lot of the mental stuff down (he did fairly well already with that in his limited action) and could be a better overall player than Ray right now. As much as everyone wants to talk about Ray’s leadership, you have to understand that that doesn’t mean everything to the team. If he is getting beat, I expect the team to start pulling some responsibility from him. He can still easily have a headset on and yell at the guys during the occasional play off. I think when he doesn’t play, the defense actually steps its game up and plays better overall as well, which is something that has to be factored in along with Pagano’s ability to use McClain in a different way.
Ultimately, I don’t think he gets even 25% of his playing time cut next year. I think its primarily 3rd downs or obvious passing situations. Short yardage stuff is still all Ray all day. The Ravens want to save as much of Ray as possible while getting other guys ready for the starting role and that means sitting him down from time to time.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
Jackmca, I have easily said reasonable opinions. To say that my opinions are baseless is true, but just like anything anyone else here says unless it comes directly from the team.
Man, I’m not telling you that all of your opinions are baseless. The point is that some of your opinions—like saying Ray will accept a diminished role instead of retiring—are with merit and others—like saying McClain is “twice” the athlete Lewis is—are without. All I’m saying is that to call each opinion not personally stated by Eric DeCosta or Ozzie Newsome “baseless” is an excuse to make some pretty absurd arguments. Let’s keep it reasonable here.
My personal opinion is that Ray will be true to his word and retire instead of accepting a diminished role. For that matter, I also expect Reed to retire, as he will see on the tape from this season that he had some pretty disappointing efforts. That missed tackle (if you can even call it that) on Scott will stand out in his mind, if you ask me.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Looking back, you are right. You were just calling a specific exaggerated statement I made baseless.
I really don’t make absurd arguments. I might exaggerate a little bit from time to time, but those are usually pretty clear…at least to me, like calling McClain twice the athlete of Ray is clearly an exaggeration on the guy’s skill while getting the main point across that McClain can fill in quite well as a starter and make up for the mental miscues with better physical attributes.
I hate to say it, but I kinda hope both retire. I think we can replace both and at least keep the same level of output they had this year if not better. I think it also allows Pagano to be a little more creative with a more athletic guy in each position. Of course I’ll be sad to see both go, but I think it would be best for the team at this point to get along without either guy. Not to mention that it probably clears up a fair bit of cap space too.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
I hate to say it, but I kinda hope both retire.
Me too. It’s all downhill from here. If they retire now, we will only have positive memories of both of them.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
yeah, I completely agree there actually. It isn’t necessarily the memories, but the injuries that I care about. Reed is already so close to being in a wheelchair and Lewis is starting to get some nasty nagging injuries every year. I’d much rather see both retire this year so they can live in decent health after this.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 5, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
The Big
Difference between what the Ravens did with Heap, Mason and Gregg and what you are suggesting was that it was handled as a business decision between seasons. Those three were not benched before the season ended, other than for injury reasons.
Ray is in the last year of his current contract. I do not see the Ravens signing him to anything other than a one year slightly over the vet minimum, if they do resign him. Ozzie will probably be the one to have “the talk” with Ray after the SuperBowl and I truly only see one outcome: Ray’s retirement as Ozzie will do what is best for this team. And at that point, between seasons, it becomes a business decision and CBA (Cost Benefit Analysis).
Many great players have walked from “their” team: Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, et al. Even Johnny U. played his last year in San Diego. Ray may try to squeeze one more year out and if some franchise offers him well over the vet minimum, I could see him trying to make one more go at it. Just like the other players I named above.
During the season, it is all about “team”. Between seasons, it is all about business decisions, for both parties.
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
I agree with you, and I don’t see us cutting either player because of what they are and how close they are to retirement, but my analysis of both possibly getting a reduced role isn’t too crazy.
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/39521/ravens-regular-season-wrap-up-2 – Look at the last bit
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Good Article/Link
Yeah, about that Ray…
There is no good way to handle except for Oz to have a man-to-man with Ray about what is realistic from a football perspective. Winning a SuperBowl makes the context of that conversation much easier.
My biggest fear is that when I look at Ray, I see a bit of Brett Favre… I hope I am wrong in that regard.
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
That’s what I have been thinking as well. The guy is such a competitor that he just won’t want to stop when he really should retire after this year. There is no way we cut him, but I can see him getting a reduced role while we bring up the younger guys.
Ray is still a great “general”, but this is a physical sport that requires certain athletics to be performed to do the job. If a wise player could do it, players like Ogden and Jason Taylor would never retire.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
sorry for the double post
but someone also pointed out—i think it was Ampallang—in another thread that we hold TE’s to pretty reasonable numbers. So no reason to fix what isn’t broken, especially if it requires touching a 3rd rail like Lewis or Reed.
We’re the 3rd overall defense in the NFL now, it’s important to remember that.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Towards the end of the season, you are seeing offenses treat both Reed and Lewis differently. They are using their weaknesses against them and its working. Both of them know where they need to be, but a lot of it is reaction and speed to get there, and both have lost that ability. So you see Ray coming in late on a tackle or trying to chase a screen down that was his responsibility. You see Reed coming in late to help out a CB that is beat by a few steps and you see him backpedaling to avoid having to tackle.
Just because we are 3rd doesn’t mean that we couldn’t get better.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
examples please
What you just said was incredibly vague. Ray’s issues against San Diego were pretty obvious, and were injury related. Likewise, we’re aware of Reed’s whiff on Bernard Scott. What, apart from this, makes you think that Reed and Ray Ray, in playoff mode, following a bye week, in what both have hinted will be their last season, should be relegated to reduced roles?
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
I never said that they will get benched next week. You might be reading a bit too much into that. I am talking about next season if they haven’t retired yet.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
I’d bet more than a dollar they will, regardless of super bowl outcomes.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
I’d bet more than a dollar …
Unprecedented.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
State your case, back it up with facts and reasonable opinions ...
Bruce Raffel
Unprecedented.
Pop shit like a man.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Haha, no need to bet. I can easily see Reed retiring this year. I think he’s just done mentally after all the injuries and the family stuff. I think that man just wants to enjoy a few years of relaxation without the fear of paralysis.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
The guy has been a liability in pass coverage all year long and has missed quite a few tackles
there are stats that prove otherwise
I’m also tired of the injury excuses from the guy too.
Im kind tried of fans acting like great players cant have bad years too. Revis had a bad year last year when he sign his new contract, ngata hasnt played consistently dominate this year, and Anquan Boldin has dropped passes but I guess that all means they are on the decline.
for once, jazz, we agree
Some things you just don’t touch. Truly great players—not the “Hall of Very Good” (apologies to Peter King) players like Todd Heap—are untouchable. They play until they either don’t want to, or they’re laughably bad. Neither Ray nor Reed is even close to being a bad player. They’re both still the best players at their positions on this team.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Reed has had some of these problems for a few years now and they are only getting worse. I’m not saying the guy is a bad player, but I do think all those injuries have caught up with him and I think he’s done. He’s not playing like the old Ed Reed of even last year and he seems almost afraid of contact unlike his previous seasons.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know if this has been mentioned, but Flacco has thrown against top-10 defenses eleven times this year, and against top-10 passing defenses ten times (and four of the five remaining teams that round out the top-15!). Against those top-10 passing defenses, Flacco had a QB rating of 83, which compares favorably to the ratings listed above for both Brees and Favre (both of whom were likely to have thrown against much worse passing defenses to obtain their ratings). Flacco also threw 12 touchdowns to just five interceptions. Most importantly, the Ravens went 9-1 against those top passing defenses.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
State your case, back it up with facts and reasonable opinions ...
Bruce Raffel
that has not been mentioned
and if it weren’t so redundant at this point (with all the “Joe Flacco is/is not elite” Fan Posts) it would be worth a fan post of its own.
Don’t be afraid to repeat that in another thread somewhere. That is useful information.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Favre?
Do you mean Rodgers, or has number 4 been hiding in someone else’s jersey?
You come at the king, you best not miss.
by organizedchaos52 on Jan 4, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
Oh dear, not paying attention. My bad.
You come at the king, you best not miss.
by organizedchaos52 on Jan 4, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
flacco took a giant step back this year
its the direction, not the overall #s for four years, that scares people.
If He Wins in Indy
This year, would you still consider it a step back?
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
He won in Pittsburgh
and they still do.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Touché
Good point.
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
Joe could be one of those guys
who wins two or three superbowls on amazing teams and has a 90-ish QB rating for his whole career and finally, 10 years after his retirement, people will say “wait a minute, that weird Joe Flacco guy was pretty good.”
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
A lot of QBs have had to go through the same thing and its not horribly uncommon. Guys like Pennington, and Garcia have been guys that got the job done in the W category, yet get no respect and were routinely replaced for guys that can put up good stats but also can’t seem to find the wins all that often. Its unfortunate, but Flacco will never put up top 5 numbers in this league where teams do nothing but pass every down and score 40-50 points. This team just isnt a 500yard passing / 5 TD type of team and that isn’t really his fault at the end of the day.
I hate that people are saying Joe took a step back this year. He’s working with brand new WRs and we are trying to force the ball down the field a lot more than in previous years. Cam’s offense is a hit or miss type of offense where we try those longer throws that are notorious for a lower comp%. The same thing happened to Pitt when they transitioned from a rush first team to a passing team and there will be hiccups here in Baltimore as well. To blame this on Flacco is kinda goofy if you think about it. We sit here with an offense that can put up 20-30 points in a half without too much trouble, and all against top 10 defenses. We do have our struggles, but those really come against a physical defense that can get after the QB and leave physical CBs in press man on our WRs to slow them down a bit (see the Tenn game)
I think a change in OC will help a ton as will just having some continuity with the skill positions. Having another year of Boldin, Torrey and Evans here will help Joe feel more comfortable next year and having an OC that knows all the routes in the route tree will certainly help fix the issues of getting the ball out sooner. Really once you fix those few things and maybe lessen the drops by WRs, you have a pretty potent offense to go with a top 5 defense.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 4, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
But Pennington and Garcia both had severe physical shortcomings. Pennington had a weaker arm than I do, and Garcia is like 5’2", if you’ll forgive the hyperbole.
Flacco is a dream prospect in reality. He’s 6’6", has a rocket arm, a decent if not lightning-quick release, and decent mobility. He’s calm under pressure, makes safe decisions with the ball, and is able to make big throws to win games without making stupid throws to lose games. I’m just at a loss for what people want to see from the guy before they accept him.
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
My point is that these guys won and that is all that matters. Neither were fantastic stat machines, but the job got done. Flacco is in a similar boat in that we just aren’t a stat machine type of offense, yet at least.
Unfortunately, in this day and age, people want to see 5000 yards and 30+ TDs before a guy becomes a great QB. Everyone tries to make every QB live up to the stats posted by guys that pass 40+ times a game and have ProBowl WRs in offenses that have to put up 50 points to win a game. Its like saying we aren’t successful in life because we don’t have Bill Gates money.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Jan 5, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Regular season wins =/= Super Bowl win
"If you havin' dragon problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 arrows but my knee took one."
not the point
the point is that if you could tell people flacco would have done all this by his 4th season, people would have been ecstatic in 2008. But here we are in 2012 and people still question if he’s a franchise QB
I love it knowing that there are a handful of Ravens fans in this area who despise the fact that Joe will be our QB for the next 10 years. --Mr. MaLoR
Agreed and Steeler fans think because Ben got a ring so quick that Flacco should have one too. Ben is an elite QB and it’s very rare to do what he did, but that somehow is the measuring stick for Flacco. Most of us never claim him to be an elite, but believe we do have a very good QB.
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
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