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The Replacements

We all know that Ozzie is going to do what has to be done. First he locked up Yanda. He released the vets, which he obviously felt was necessary, and at 2 of the positions, he had already drafted the replacements. At TE, we have Ed Dickson, Dennis Pitta, & Davon Drew. On the D-line we have Terrance Cody and  young up-and-comers Arthur Jones and Brandon McKinney. A questionable move in many minds was the signing of Chris Carr over Josh Wilson; I think most of us will probably assume that Ozzie had a reason for this move. He preempted the departures of Wilson, Fabian Washington, Houshmanzadeh and Derrick Mason with the drafting of Jimmy Smith, Chykie Brown, Torrey Smith, and Tandon Doss. Then he replaced Leron Mclain, a FB who wants to be a RB, with the best fullback in the league, Vonta Leach. So far so good. Although we still have holes in the lineup potentially, due to the injury to Matt Birk at Center,the youth at WR behind Anquan Boldin, and the uncertainty at RT, most of us have faith in Ozzie.

The RT situation is hard for us as outsiders to know for sure; we are unsure because the uncertainty of the position. We have 3 possibilities right now: Oniel Cousins, Jah Reid, and Ramon Harewood. Cousins and Harewood both worked out this off-season with our former stud RT, Orlando 'Zeus' Brown, and he said they are looking good. And Reid is said to have looked pretty good so far. So I am going to give him a pass on this one for now. 

The C situation is new, and Birk may be back before the first game. The only decent C out there was Olin Kreutz, and he has gone to the Saints for 2 million with incentives that top out at 4 million. I assume Ozzie didn't want him for that price, or he would probably be here. Hopefully we will be okay with Birk, our undrafted rookies, and Bryan Mattison.

The WR situation has not fully played its way out. Q is our unquestioned #1 WR. After him, we have a collection of rookies and other unproven players. Tandon Doss and Torrey Smith are locks for the roster. Ideally though, they should only be counted on as the 3rd and 4th receivers for us. The other guys are LaQuan Willaims, Brandon Jones, James Hardy, David Reed, and Marcus Smith. No more than 1 or 2 of these guys will llikely make the roster if we sign a vet. The team is looking into the options, which include Lee Evans via trade, or Jerricho Cotchery via free agency. If we don't sign anyone, we will probably keep at least 2 maybe 3 of them.

Star-divide

On to the purpose of this article. I have heard too many fans saying how Dawan Landry is better than Bernard Pollard, and Willis McGahee is better than Ricky Williams. I am here to debunk these theories. I am not saying that I am going to prove that Ricky and Bernard are BETTER players, but they definitely are not downgrades at all.

Safety

When Landry was signed by the Jaguars, most fans had no problems letting him walk. Outside of the contract, which we had no interest in matching at 5 years 27.5 million, we also had 2 solid replacements on the roster in Haruki Nakamura and Tom Zbikowski. However, after the market played out, Ozzie brought in a beast to compete with them at Safety: his name is Bernard Pollard and he signed for half the cost of Landry. Now he had been let go by both Kansas City and Houston, which could be a concern, but those seem to be over concerns over his lack of coverage skills and defensive fit. They were drafted in the same year, Pollard in the 2nd round, and Landry in the 5th. However, keep in mind that Landry was the starter from day 1, with a great supporting cast who helps players look better than they are, and Pollard played on weak defenses with little help.

Now let us do a comparison:

Career:

Landry- 66 games, 363 tackles, 5 sacks, 9 int, 2 ff, 29 pd, 3 tds.

Pollard- 76 games, 414 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 7 int, 9 ff, 21 pd, 1 sfty, 2 tds

Advantage: Pretty even!

Best Years:

 

Landry- 69 tackles, 1 sack, 5 int, 0 ff, 11 pd, 1 td (rookie year)

               89 tackles, 0 sack, 4 int, 1 ff, 8 pd, 1 td (2009-2010)

Pollard-  112 tackles, 3 sacks, 0 int, 4 ff, 5 pd,  0 tds (2010-2011)

                  102 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 4 int, 1 ff, 7 pd,  2 tds (2009-2010)

Contract:

 

Landry- 5 years 27.5 million

Pollard- 2 years 6 million

 

Advantage: Pretty even besides the price, although Landry seems a little more adept at getting interceptions, while Pollard is a better blitzer and better at forcing fumbles. The bottom line is that Pollard has gotten better every year. He likely hasn't unleashed his full potential. He is more like an extra linebacker, which should help a team that needs to generate more pressure. I am sure Chuck Pagano was pushing for this guy.

 

 

Not going to get to RB for now. But suffice to say I don't think it is a downgrade at all. Ricky has more starting experience, and more experience as change of pace back. The money was most important, and it saved us millions.

The opinions posted here are those of the administrator of this blog and his loyal readers. They are in no way official comments from the team, and should not be misconstued as such, even though he thinks he could do just as well or even a better job!

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Perfect example why Ozzie is the man. Look how much Landry is making compared to Pollard when the production is very similar. The big difference is Landry has got to play next to arguably the best S ever and on D that consistently ranks near the top. Lets see how he holds up in Jacksonville.

On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu

by AV23 on Aug 9, 2011 6:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Pollard > Landry

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 9, 2011 6:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Gotta agree with that

I will always have love for Dawan and what he did for this team, but Pollard put up comparable (and in some areas, better) numbers being on a terrible defense. I can’t wait to see what he can do when teams have to focus on Reed, Ray, Suggs, Ngata etc and he can really do great things.

by YeahDonnie on Aug 9, 2011 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree that BP>landry

But keep in mind that numbers—particularly safeties numbers—can be inflated by bad defenses since they constantly have to tackle the guys that the front seven didn’t stop.

"Airborne, do not look at the ground. I promise you, it will be there. Unless the tectonic plates shift, and a chasm opens up on the drop zone, in which case we will surely let you know."

by jackmca on Aug 11, 2011 9:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Good point

but you still have to make the tackle, and as a Safety, it’s often an open field tackle.

by YeahDonnie on Aug 11, 2011 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

no doubt

i’m high on BP for sure. We should just call him Katulu, like the oil spill in South Park.

"Airborne, do not look at the ground. I promise you, it will be there. Unless the tectonic plates shift, and a chasm opens up on the drop zone, in which case we will surely let you know."

by jackmca on Aug 12, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Talavou is no longer on the team, but we have some up and comers along the d-line. McKinney, who is now off the PUP list, should break out this year. Cody should begin a nice career and form a wall with Ngata. And I’ve been touting #88 for a few weeks now…Pitta is Todd Heap, Jr. He should be a stud for us.

by JoshuaStein on Aug 9, 2011 6:51 PM EDT reply actions  

hold up hold up hold up no this guy didnt just forget to mention Justin Harper in widereceiver group lol

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 9, 2011 6:57 PM EDT reply actions  

lol I was just helping

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 9, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good job with the comparison, RISYD.

Hopefully, we use Pollard better than his previous teams, and let him go after the QB a whole lot more. Organized Chaos got even more scary with Pollard instead of Landry.

The writer formerly known as This White Man Can Jump; Powah Stached; Bear Killer; Da Dude; The Other Bambino; TJ Dropped The Season; Harbaugh Is My Co-Pilot; Billick's Alter Ego; Mr. Poopy Pants.

by El.Dude on Aug 9, 2011 8:15 PM EDT reply actions  

It's good to hear it from someone else

Every player that has left has either been improved, or replaced with youth. These other teams that are dropping ridiculous contract for Asomugha and Holmes will be kicking themselves down the road. Meanwhile Ozzie has rebuilt from within, and by grabbing other teams overlooked players such as Pollard. And IMO, bringing in Leach will be as huge for this team as any other FA signing in the league. We’re finally going back to our physical run game, and Joe and the defense will benefit greatly in that style of play. Its just sad to hear the various ridiculous media out there saying we won’t make it far with our current WR’s, but when have we ever had terrific WR’s? Like Suggs put it last year in the KC playoff game, this team is built for January….I can’t wait.

"I hate your sig…" -Mr MaLoR

by StuckInUtah on Aug 9, 2011 9:19 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

but when have we ever had terrific WR’s?

It’s not about having terrific WRs, we need another guy with some experience. WR is probably the position where rookies have the least success in the NFL, even more than QB. The young guys we have are very talented and I have high hopes for them, but to expect them to come in after a very short offseason and expect them to make big contributions is a stretch.

WR isn’t all about having good hands or being fast, if so there would be 1000 #1 WRs in the league. They need to learn the nuances of playing their position and also how to play off opposing CBs.

by YeahDonnie on Aug 10, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I expect to see plenty of 2TE sets early on in the season

With Rice and Leach in the backfield, we will only be able to have 1 WR on the field anyway. We could option either a TE or Rice out when the situation calls for it. I’m not saying that this should be our only formation because that would be predictable. However, we could lean on 2TE sets until our rookies get some experience under their belts.

Last season, the Patriots had plenty of success with 2TE sets against the Steelers. I’m hoping Cam watched some tape during the lockout.

by Mayne_Event on Aug 10, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would love lots of 2 TE sets, but from what the guys who are in camp say, there isnt much of that going on right now.

by Rayisyourdaddy on Aug 10, 2011 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

What I'm worried about is teams locking down on Boldin with double teams and coverage rolled his way

and all these rookies/2nd year guys with barely any experience won’t be enough to get the job done. We have a lot of talented young players at the TE and WR position, but it takes time to adjust to the NFL, especially for WRs.

by YeahDonnie on Aug 10, 2011 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Torrey has been beating our decent corners deep a lot this season. If he sees a lot of single coverage with no safety over the top, it’s going to be TDs galore.

The writer formerly known as This White Man Can Jump; Powah Stached; Bear Killer; Da Dude; The Other Bambino; TJ Dropped The Season; Harbaugh Is My Co-Pilot; Billick's Alter Ego; Mr. Poopy Pants.

by El.Dude on Aug 10, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope he absolutely kills it this year

but there are thousands of guys who were training camp MVPs and never did anything in real games. We could use a little experience until these guys are ready to prove themselves. I’m not saying we need to go and trade for Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald, we could just use a guy who is proven in the NFL and can take some pressure off Boldin.

by YeahDonnie on Aug 10, 2011 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hear ya. We will have Ed Dickson, and Ray Rice on the field with him. That’ll be a good trio just to start with. Torrey and Ed with stretch the field, and open a lot of things up. Mason and Heap couldn’t do that last year.

The writer formerly known as This White Man Can Jump; Powah Stached; Bear Killer; Da Dude; The Other Bambino; TJ Dropped The Season; Harbaugh Is My Co-Pilot; Billick's Alter Ego; Mr. Poopy Pants.

by El.Dude on Aug 11, 2011 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

There numbers are a lot alike. The consensus is that both landry and pollard are both below par in coverage, so this isnt an upgrade. I think that Pollard was brought in for a specific reason, and that was to rush the passer. Just like El.dude said organized chaos is on its way back.

As for RT, I say we give the rookie a chance, and if hes not ready i say we go look for outside help. I just do not trust cousins, and harewood is still a project. Reid is a beast in run protection, and if he is suspect in pass protection we have leach, and williams is good at blocking as well.

I would much rather have us go with the kids at WR, like stuckinutah said when have we ever had great recievers, Mason is a good reciever but he got every ball. Thats why i think people are worried about our recieving corps because he was Flaccos baby blanket. Boldin was brought here to be the number 1 guyy

by JCroUSAF on Aug 9, 2011 10:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Right Tackle

Cousins is still a project too. Keep in mind, his “stats” were actually pretty solid, even though he got thrown into the fire. He might not have been ready, but that doesnt mean he can’t be a solid starter in the league.

by Rayisyourdaddy on Aug 10, 2011 9:57 AM EDT reply actions  

Harewood and Reid both have a big size advantage over Cousins. That doesn’t bode well for him when it’s been made obvious that our offense will be focusing on the run game more this season.

by Mayne_Event on Aug 10, 2011 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Harewood has major knee issues, and hasn’t even been activated off the PUP. I get the impression the coaches really like Cousins’ potential, and will be given a really long look this preseason. He’s bulked up quite a bit, too.

by JoshuaStein on Aug 10, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rookie WR over the last 3 years who have made major contributions

2008

Eddie Royal 91 980 5
DeSean Jackson 62 912 2
Davone Bess 54 554 1
Donnie Avery 53 674 3

2009

Austin Collie 60 676 7
Percy Harvin 60 790 6
Jeremy Maclin 55 762 4
Michael Crabtree, 48 625 2
Mike Thomas 48 453 1
Hakeem Nicks 47 790 6
Johnny Knox 45 527 5

2010

Mike Williams 65 964 11
Jordan Shipley 52 600 3
Dez Bryant 45 561 6

Most of what I am hearing is that we cannot expect our rookies to be much of a contribution this year because they are rookies. Yes, I am well aware of the fact that the lockout hurt them somewhat, but I don’t think it hurt them to the point where they will struggle to get 10 catches if thrown into the starting lineup right away.

My guess is that either Torrey or Tandon have similar numbers to what is above.

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 10, 2011 8:39 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

They're gonna have to

and I will completely trust whatever Ozzie/Harbaugh decide to go with Sept. 11 against the Steelers. If we don’t sign/trade for anyone by then, I know that means they believe these guys can contribute right away. That doesn’t mean I won’t be a little nervous until then. If they need someone, they’ll get someone.

by YeahDonnie on Aug 10, 2011 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

the major difference between those guys and our guys is that they actrally had longer training camp also had the chance to learn in otas.

I dont think its the matter that the rookies cannot make much contribution because they definately can but its asking alot of them to start atleast as a number two next too boldin. I could be wrong and the rookies turn out like you say in their first year and I hope so but I still think it be wise to add veteran to the mix unless a veteran like James Hardy, Justin Harper, and Brandon Jones steps up

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 10, 2011 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

its asking alot of them to start atleast as a number two next too boldin

Make that asking them to start 2-5 or 6. That’s the problem. After Boldin, we have nobody at all with experience.

by YeahDonnie on Aug 10, 2011 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand you but if they really ready then I have no problem with that because I would love to see my favorite

wideout tandon doss make some plays and he can still could if a veteran is added

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 10, 2011 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

My problem with this line of thinking

is that, if we do indeed panic (and I, for the record, am fine with rookies at WR) and get a veteran, just to get a veteran, the downside of that action is that these rookies will develop slower because they will never see the field (or rarely) in actual games – maybe for a couple of seasons.

You can’t have a host of veterans sucking up starting spots and hope to grow inhouse talent for the future. All you wind up with is a bunch of 2nd and 3rd year guys who still haven’t shown what they can do because they got shut out of reps. And so, when the veteran who came in retires, gets permanently injured, dies, you now have 3rd year guys you can’t trust cause you never saw them in games and so it’s time to bring in more veterans – just to be sure. Let the damn rookies play.

"Cam Cameron…even his parents where obvious and repetitive." - raven

by GrumpyOldBird on Aug 11, 2011 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let the damn rookies play.

Amen.

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 11, 2011 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

just to get a veteran, the downside of that action is that these rookies will develop slower because they will never see the field (or rarely) in actual games – maybe for a couple of seasons.

 this doesnt make sense at all but i under stand what you saying. players like steve smith( meaning new york giants steve smith), terrel owens, miles austin and etc have all been rookies that had veteran a front of them for atleast a year or more but now they are consider to be one the best wideouts in the league.Nobody is saying these rookies shouldnt see the field and if one veteran effects them from seeing the field then what you think the rookles will do for the other guys like David Reed, Justin Harper(if he makes the team), James Hardy(if he makes the team), Laquan Williams(if he makes the team, and the etc.

the rookies can indeed see the field with added veteren its not like we asking for a veteran to sign a four year deal. Its not about just signing a veteran to be signing a veteran its about common sense and knowing these young guys have already been robbed of learning curve because of the lockout; how can anyone expect them to start ( i mean as a number two) in there first game against the steelers. Im not saying it cant happen Im not saying I dont want it to happen but its good to have insurance even when it seems like everything is going alright.

You can’t have a host of veterans sucking up starting spots and hope to grow inhouse talent for the future

say that to dez bryant when he litterally later on in the season last year beat roy williams out for his starting spot. If you want to go further than just wideouts then say that to Aaron Rodgers when he had Brett Farve over him for more than a year. Competition never stops even in regular season rookies have in the past have beat out veteran players and have been in the past where players that have not seen the field because of veteran talent around have eventually bloom into great players.

the learning curve doesnt stop because they dont see the field and besides no one is not asking them not to the see the field but atleast add establish veteran starter for them to learn from also for insurance.

I overall think some people want to see the rookies play right off the back not for the sake of the team to win games but just to see something new for their own entertainment. I have nothing against the rookies and I hope they do well(i think I said that amillion times already) but if you guys really think adding a veteran will hurt these young guys than once again say that to terrel owens, steve smith, austin miles, and etc

I keep seeing how recent history have shown that rookie wideouts have step up in big ways but tell did any of those wideouts suffer through a126 day lockout ? you cant tell me otas is not important, you cant tell me two weeks of training camp is enough for them to start and you know why because hasnt been proving yet

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 11, 2011 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

say that to dez bryant when he litterally later on in the season last year beat roy williams out for his starting spot. If you want to go further than just wideouts then say that to Aaron Rodgers when he had Brett Farve over him for more than a year.

If, in the course of half a season, Dez Bryant beat out Roy Williams for the starting spot, then, in all likelihood, he should have been starting in the first place and would have been nearly as good on opening day. But, because Williams was the veteran, he was given the starting spot because that’s the way it works in the NFL. The new guys have to pay their “dues”. You can’t seriously tell me that Bryant was magically instilled with the abilities necessary to be the starter simply by sitting on the bench and carrying Williams’ pads for him. It doesn’t work that way. If he had the goods at game 8 (or whenever the change happened), then he had them just as well at game 1.

As far as the Favre/Rodgers debate – Puhleeeze!! If Favre was still at Green Bay, Rodgers would still never have seen the light of day. Most likely, Rodgers would now be with another team or retired.

Rookies don’t get better just by sitting there and (if I need to, I’ll get the figures for this), they don’t get all that much game-time action either. How many countless times have we heard a story about Player X, 2nd-3rd year who has to come in for injured Veteran Player Y and has never played a down in the NFL before? Also, all this mentoring that people claim we need a veteran for – how many of these veteran guys actually mentor anyone? Especially at WR. Usually these guys have near the biggest egos on the field and ALL they think about is themselves. Think they’re really passing along tips to let the next guy in line take their job? Or take a mercenary like TO who knows he’s going to be on a different team next year because he wears out his welcome pretty quickly. People like him could care less about the team they’re playing for currently (or the next one) because it’s all about them, so they’re not going to invest the time to teach the young-uns for the future because their future is in a different city.

"Cam Cameron…even his parents where obvious and repetitive." - raven

by GrumpyOldBird on Aug 11, 2011 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Couldn’t agree more with everything you just said. About dez, and especially about “learning” from the bench.

A player watches from the bench just like I watch from the stands. If they can really learn the position like that then someone needs to sign me because all I do is watch football.

I’ve never heard a player endorse the whole “learning by osmosis” idea. Flacco said himself that you learn by playing. They’ve watched football their whole lives, let them play it.

"Airborne, do not look at the ground. I promise you, it will be there. Unless the tectonic plates shift, and a chasm opens up on the drop zone, in which case we will surely let you know."

by jackmca on Aug 11, 2011 9:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

If, in the course of half a season, Dez Bryant beat out Roy Williams for the starting spot, then, in all likelihood, he should have been starting in the first place and would have been nearly as good on opening day

no he wouldnt because it obviously meant that roy williams was playing better than Dez Bryant at the time not because he was a veteran. Dez Bryant just simply step his game up and impress the coaches in practice to the point that felt Roy Williams wasnt a better option than Dez Bryant as the number two wideout. Players learn every day and get better every day either in training camp/ regular season there learning process doesn’t stop .

As far as the Favre/Rodgers debate – Puhleeeze!! If Favre was still at Green Bay, Rodgers would still never have seen the light of day. Most likely, Rodgers would now be with another team or retired.

 you dont know that and I dont know that but you cant say Rodgers didnt learn anything while he was watching Favre play for more than a year.

Rookies don’t get better just by sitting there and (if I need to, I’ll get the figures for this), they don’t get all that much game-time action either

you can’t tell me players dont learn anything even when they dont see the field because these guys are still practicing still learning from there position coaches and etc.Arthur Jones barely saw the field last year I guess his progress was hurt badly to? but right now he has been very impresssive in training camp and obviously he is better than he was when he was a rookie.

I dont deny the fact that game experience does help a rookie progress but that does not mean they are still not learning when they are not getting in game experience.

TO who knows he’s going to be on a different team next year because he wears out his welcome pretty quickly. People like him could care less about the team they’re playing for currently (or the next one) because it’s all about them, so they’re not going to invest the time to teach the young-uns for the future because their future is in a different city

I dont know TO and I cant make any assumption of what type of person he is. I know for sure he mentor a young player by the name of James Hardy who currently with the ravens now and he said so him self T.O help him greatly .

Overall Im not saying the rookies shouldnt see the field but a veteran should be signed atleast for insurance. I just dont see how a rookie wideout thats been in a lockout for 126 days should be put in the fire right away at least as a starter next to boldin but im not denying that it can happen.

The Ravens may have to just go with the rookies and obviously Ozzie probably didnt feel as strong for the rookies if it true that he was trying to sign veteran wideout Malcolm Flyod but right now he probably has not choice but to go with the rookies

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 11, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

You know, man, you and I could just keep arguing the same thing over and over and we’ll never convince each other of our point of view.

You lump non-game practices in with in-game playing and I suppose with studying the playbook. And, yes, all of that combined will give you some knowledge, but the best experience is to play against other professionals in a game. Any player will tell you that. You can have all the theory and mentoring and whatever you want, but until you have to make a catch with Revis or Woodson or Nnamdi breathing down your neck, you’re not going to learn anything. It’s the same as being a musician – you can practice playing something at home at half speed and get it absolutely perfect eventually, but until you play that with other musicians in a real setting, you really have only done half the work.

I just dont see how a rookie wideout thats been in a lockout for 126 days should be put in the fire right away at least as a starter next to boldin but im not denying that it can happen.

I don’t get the obsession with the lockout. You keep saying they’ve lost 126 days to the lockout. OTAs generally happen between the end of February and the end of April, right? That’s 60 days. And most mini-camps, etc. last, what, 5 days at most? And there are probably 4-5 a pre-season? So, at most, most of these guys may have missed 25 days. The same as EVERY OTHER PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE. It’s not like our rookies were kept in a dungeon since the draft. They were perfectly allowed to exercise and workout on their own time. If they didn’t keep in (at least) physical shape, that fault is on them. Also, I’m going to get all “old man” here and say, the OTAs and their like are a modern invention. Do you think the players of the 50s-80s went to mini-camps? Hell no. Those guys were insurance salesmen and mechanics and other blue collar jobs during the off season. It’s where they got their income before collective bargaining. They couldn’t be taking off for “mini-camp”. And they seemed to do alright.

no he wouldnt because it obviously meant that roy williams was playing better than Dez Bryant at the time not because he was a veteran.

Uhm, yeah. And good guys always finish first and if you work hard enough, you can achieve anything you want. How are things living up on those clouds?

you dont know that and I dont know that but you cant say Rodgers didnt learn anything while he was watching Favre play for more than a year.

Actually I do know that, because I remember what was happening at the time, when Rodgers was seeking a trade or at least hinting at one because he was never going to play. And Rodgers sat behind Favre for well more than a year – more like 3-4 if my memory serves. Yes, I’m sure he learned some things watching, but he learned a whole lot more by just lacing up his cleats and getting out there.

"Cam Cameron…even his parents where obvious and repetitive." - raven

by GrumpyOldBird on Aug 11, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1, again

"Airborne, do not look at the ground. I promise you, it will be there. Unless the tectonic plates shift, and a chasm opens up on the drop zone, in which case we will surely let you know."

by jackmca on Aug 11, 2011 1:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Aaron Rodgers didn’t learn any more watching Favre than the rest of Cheesehead nation did, because they watched him too.

Does it look to you, jazz, when you watch Rodgers, that he imitates Favre at all?

"Airborne, do not look at the ground. I promise you, it will be there. Unless the tectonic plates shift, and a chasm opens up on the drop zone, in which case we will surely let you know."

by jackmca on Aug 11, 2011 1:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I never watch rodgers or favre enough to so know if they play similar but just because a guy doesnt mimic another player style doesnt mean he cant learn from that player

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 11, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uhm, yeah. And good guys always finish first and if you work hard enough, you can achieve anything you want. How are things living up on those clouds?

If Dez Bryant was better than Roy Williams at the time then he would have start over him in the first game. Dez Bryant had more potentials than Williams but you dont put you dont start a player over a another just base off of potentials and thats all.Players progression improve over time even in the regular season the same way Defensive End Dawan Edwards start over Trevor Pryce when he was a raven it obviously meant Edwards was becoming the better player at the the time.

You know, man, you and I could just keep arguing the same thing over and over and we’ll never convince each other of our point of view.

lets just keep it like that

The same as EVERY OTHER PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE. It’s not like our rookies were kept in a dungeon since the draft.

They had no contact with there coaches for atleast 126 days I know they work out and studie their play book and etc but like the song saids by marvin gaye it aint nothing like the real thing baby thats what i stand by. you can try to learn as much as you want and you may learn but it nothing like learning from your actrally coaches and etc

Again I stick by my opinion and you stick by yours I think Im done with this subject also I think i need to say this again I am not saying the rookies can’t do it but you cant tell me there isnt not cause for concerns in that areas. I know peole want to keep their faith in ozzie and what ever but he makes mistake to( Im sure somebody like no he didnt just say that about ozzie) but yes he makes mistakes to.

How are things living up on those clouds?

what was that all about?

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 11, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, I’m done with this debate, but two things. I’m no “Ozzie is always right” guy. So, what I’m saying is not said to “support” Ozzie. It’s my opinion regardless of what Ozzie decides to do. But Ozzie has to figure into that because – end of the day – he is the one making the decisions. Is he always right? Nope. A lot more often right than wrong. Yep.

Second thing – to answer your question – the cloud reference was an analogous way of saying you’re a dreamer if you believe that Williams didn’t play ahead of Bryant because he was a veteran. The job is always the veteran’s to lose, not the rookie’s to earn.

And one more thing – just cause I’m a sarcastic bastard who hates the misuse of English…

but you cant tell me there isnt not cause

So, there is cause??

"Cam Cameron…even his parents where obvious and repetitive." - raven

by GrumpyOldBird on Aug 11, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I started to dislike this conversation you when you used the cloud reference

and I thought it was disrespectful or atleast a insult to my intelligence but hey thats how you carry it man. I would like to thank you for pointing out my misuse of english :) I honestly didnt notice that error at first.

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 11, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

bro he didn’t mean to insult your intelligence. He was suggesting that your line of thinking was naive, which I do agree with. Just because Dez didn’t start doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t have started since the Cowboys—particularly in the Wade era—were not exactly the class of the league in evaluating talent.

The best players don’t always start, the good guys don’t always win, and cheaters sometimes get away with it, I think that was Grumpy’s general gist.

"Airborne, do not look at the ground. I promise you, it will be there. Unless the tectonic plates shift, and a chasm opens up on the drop zone, in which case we will surely let you know."

by jackmca on Aug 12, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

bro he didn’t mean to insult your intelligence. He was suggesting that your line of thinking was naive

If he didnt mean it in that fashion then Im fine with that and if he did Im still fine with that lol but to me it seemed like thats what he was doing. You say im naive for what I said and thats your opinion on the matter but we all know Rookies have a chance to get a starting spot ( especially for a first round pick) by their performance in training camp and preseason. I dont know how Dez Bryant preformed in his preseason games but it obviously wasnt enough to convince the coaches he should start over Roy Williams at the time.

The best players don’t always start, the good guys don’t always win, and cheaters sometimes get away with it, I think that was Grumpy’s general gist.

Im not denying that is true but I dont see how what im saying dont seem just as logical as that statement. Right now the Ravens just traded for Lee Evans and most likely Lee Evans will be the number two starters for the ravens but that dont mean Torrey Smith may not outperform him in practice and etc to the point the coaches may feel comfortable with Evans as a number three and Smith as the number two

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 12, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

dude, not all WR’s are divas. for every t.o., ochcinco, randy moss and desean jackson, there is a derrick mason, anquan boldin, larry fitz, and andre johnson. there is less of an inclination toward the diva WR now that t.o. and randy moss have been pushed out of the league.

by Rayisyourdaddy on Aug 11, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

That, I’ll disagree with. We just haven’t seen all of the next crop yet. People like Brandon Marshall and Michael Crabtree are a couple of the next generation. Maybe the diva thing is dying out, but it’ll take several generations to be completely gone.

"Cam Cameron…even his parents where obvious and repetitive." - raven

by GrumpyOldBird on Aug 11, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can’t just compare guys to dez bryant, he’s a unique talent and as much as I hope that Doss is better than Bryant and Smith is better than Wallace, I won’t hold my breath.

I agree with grumpy. Throw the rookies into the fire and force them to play like vets. Sink or swim. We will see a star emerge by midseason.

"Airborne, do not look at the ground. I promise you, it will be there. Unless the tectonic plates shift, and a chasm opens up on the drop zone, in which case we will surely let you know."

by jackmca on Aug 11, 2011 9:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

this doesnt make sense at all but i under stand what you saying

Lol, what?

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 11, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

It’s the new math

"Cam Cameron…even his parents where obvious and repetitive." - raven

by GrumpyOldBird on Aug 11, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

I guess you never heard some one say I under stand what you saying but you dont make sense

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 11, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

personally

I better understand that which makes sense. When things don’t make sense, I fail to understand them. MaLoR has this same inability.

"Airborne, do not look at the ground. I promise you, it will be there. Unless the tectonic plates shift, and a chasm opens up on the drop zone, in which case we will surely let you know."

by jackmca on Aug 11, 2011 11:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

somebody can tell you something and you could understand what they coming from but at the sametime dont understand there methods.

For example you can tell me you like taking the long way to the store on such and such street because you feel like its best way and I could understand that but still say it doesnt make sense because you could take the short way to the store on such and such street

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 11, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

ok now that really didnt make sense

Your thinking is that giving a mediocre vet Smith and Doss’s touches somehow helps them or protects them from certain annihilation in week 1 vs. Pitt. I think this makes no sense. Let them play, they’ll develop chemistry with Flacco faster once they’ve experienced trying to bail him out when James Harrison is trying to rip his head off.

"Airborne, do not look at the ground. I promise you, it will be there. Unless the tectonic plates shift, and a chasm opens up on the drop zone, in which case we will surely let you know."

by jackmca on Aug 11, 2011 1:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

man I think im speaking spanish or something but I stick with my opinion

and Im sure you stick with yours

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 11, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Usually when something doesn’t make sense to me, I don’t understand what they are saying.

"'If there isn't a bone sticking out of my leg, I'm playing" - Marshall Yanda

by Mr MaLoR on Aug 11, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

it is what it is malor

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?-langton Hughes

yeah I agree with Jimmy and Cary shutting down the other teams WR’s, they’ll make anybody rushing the QB look good - Jaz

by jazz20 on Aug 11, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rookie WR's- you would have to be an idiot to rely on them

2010-
1st round-2
2nd-2
3rd-8
4th-5th-7
6th-7th-8
total-35, top3 rounds- 12

2009
1st 6
2nd-3
3rd-7
4th-5th-8
6th-7th-11
total-35, top3
16

2008
1st- 0
2nd-10
3rd- 5
4th-5th-8
6th-7th-14
total- 37 top3-15

This is how many were on your list as successful in their rookie year,
2010-3 out of 35 total, and 12 in the top3 rounds
2009-7 out of 35 total, and 16 in the top 3 rounds
2008-4 out of 35 total, 15 in the top3 rounds

So what you are saying is that you would rely on 1:5 odds that we will have a decent #2 and #3 WR this year? And if your remove the 1st rounders for the equation, the amounts would be even less if we took out the 1st rounders.

I am not hating on Torrey or Doss. I just hate to be stuck relying on them in their rookie year because the odds are against them. Every front office drafts a guy, most of the time who they think they can use in the rookie year. And most of the time, it takes 2-3 years to “get it.” WR is a position you cannot just dive in and play mostly on instincts and knowing the plays. You have to be able to know the plays, run the routes, get your timing down with your qb, and be able to contribute as a real #2 or even #2 WR. Sitting and practicing with the QB are things that actually help more at WR than other positions. So excuse me if I don’t agree with you guys who want to rely on our rooks. I am fine if they battle it out for the #3 and 4 spots, but at #2 they have to be able to do all those things from day 1.

Dez couldn’t have taken Roy’s spot cuz he didnt know what he needed to know for game 1. And our guys are at a bigger disadvantage because of the lockout.
Argue with me all you want. But the number that counts is 75-80%, As in, 75-80% of rookie WR’s taken in the top 3 rounds don’t contribute in their rookie year.

by Rayisyourdaddy on Aug 11, 2011 3:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Dez had a badly sprained ankle in Training Camp his rookie year. He’s also as dumb as Sergio Kindle. Deion Sanders even talked shit about him.

Oz has seen our young guys in practice for a couple of weeks. He saw game film on them obviously. Torrey was projected to be a first rounder by many scouts. Doss was also projected to be a 2nd rounder. He fell because of his hernia questions. These guys aren’t your run of the mill 2nd and 4th rounders. If they don’t step up during the preseason, we’ll sign some average vet WRs and we’ll see how far that takes us. I doubt the average vets will take us farther than last year. Oz is taking a risk. It could pay off huge.

The writer formerly known as This White Man Can Jump; Powah Stached; Bear Killer; Da Dude; The Other Bambino; TJ Dropped The Season; Harbaugh Is My Co-Pilot; Billick's Alter Ego; Mr. Poopy Pants.

by El.Dude on Aug 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

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