Who's Really To Blame For Ravens Offense?
by Bruce Raffel on Oct 28, 2011 12:00 PM EDT
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PrintFor years the Baltimore Ravens have struggled to take that final step to hoisting the Lombardi Trophy. Other than that magical season of 2000-01, when the defense carried the offense to Super Bowl 35 and victory, the Ravens have searched high and far for the right combination of coaches, coordinators and quarterbacks, the three positions on a team that have the most influence on the offense's success.
Before you try to determine who to blame, try putting all three of the Ravens current guys into different scenarios and bring other coaches, coordinators and players into this current one. What would have if we switched out in different combinations, head coach John Harbaugh, offensive coordinator Cam Cameron and QB Joe Flacco.
Let's start with the QB. If Joe Flacco were traded today for Green Bay Packers QB Aaron Rodgers, would the team be better and how good would Cam Cameron look with Rodgers at the helm? Not fair you say, as Rodgers is like a Tom Brady, Peyton Manning or Drew Brees and would make any OC look great? Then how about a more "second-tier" QB such as Atlanta Falcons Matt Ryan or even New York Giants QB Eli Manning?
Where would the Ravens have been over the past three seasons and where would they stand now with either of those guys at QB? Better, or worse than what Flacco has accomplished under both Harbaugh and Cameron? Conversely, how good would another team be with Joe Flacco starting for them. Would Patriots coach Bill Belichick still be the "genius" if Flacco were his starter? Would even the Falcons be as good (better or worse?) if Joe played for Atlanta?
Let's move on to Cam Cameron. What if the OC from the Packers, Patriots or Saints were brought into the Ravens trio to work with Joe under Harbaugh? How much better (or to be fair, worse) would Flacco's and the team's performance be in place of Cameron as the OC? How good (or bad) would Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees or even Matt Ryan or Eli Manning be on their current teams if Cameron were there as OC?
Finally, take head coach John Harbaugh out of the picture here in Baltimore and bring in one of the other coaches from those aforementioned QB's teams and how do you think it would have changed the past or the present if they oversaw Cameron and Flacco with the Ravens offense?
Understand, this is all to generate debate, as there is no way to quantify my or your opinions on these conjectures, just food for thought. My point in all of these different scenarios is that the combination of the three are as much of an issue as any one of them. Most of us believe we could coach or be the offensive coordinator of any team with Rodgers, Brady or Brees under center. Some might think that Cameron would look great if they were here.
Same goes for head coach John Harbaugh. Do you really think another NFL head coach could come in here and do significantly better and if Harbaugh were coach at some of the other teams instead of Baltimore, would they truly be any different today?
Some may think the Ravens would be better off with another QB in place of Flacco, be it Eli Manning or Matt Ryan. With or without Flacco, the Ravens will be a good team, if only because of their amazing defense. Everyone says "defense wins championships," but in the current NFL, an offense has to contribute in order to win it all.
So before you look to pin the tail on the "donkey" of your choice, look at who that target should be by taking a look at who else that target could possibly be.
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Gotta love Heap
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Flacco has to trust his receivers to make catches, but shouldn’t throw towards coverage. He needs to attack deep more often, but shouldn’t hold onto the ball so long. He needs to show more awareness in the pocket and move to extend plays, but nothing good comes of him leaving the pocket. He should run with the ball if nobody’s open, but he definitely can’t run with the ball.
Flacco should have the awareness of Roethlisberger, the elusiveness of Vick, the control of the offense of Manning, the leadership of Brady, the accuracy of Brees, and the arm strength of … Flacco? - Ampallang
Class guy all the way
Sorry he left, but it was time, although I still wonder what if…
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Oct 28, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Almost brought a tear to my eye this morning. You really can’t ask for a classier, nicer guy and a hotter milf.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The Very
Definition of class.
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
John Harbaugh has proven himself to be a great coach. He unites the entire locker room and is an old-school, hard-working type of guy. Sure, he makes mistakes, but his record speaks for itself. I’m happy with the job he’s doing.
Joe Flacco has proven himself to be a winning quarterback. Some may attribute that to the great team he came into, but there have been many great teams over the years and not all of them have been able to make the playoffs (and win a game) for three straight years. Flacco is an accurate (for his career), durable (never missed a game), strong-armed quarterback. Of course, he is not on the level of Brady-Manning-Rodgers-Brees-Roethlisberger, but then again, very, very few can say they are. We can discuss for years whether he can be considered a great or elite quarterback, but I think the majority of people will say he is a good quarterback, with the potential to be a very good, possibly great with a SuperBowl title. His progression is evident in his numbers throughout the years, but he seems to be handcuffed in not being able to call his own plays all the time. That brings me to
Cam Cameron. Just no. We have seen time and time again, he does not know how to make in game adjustments, is stubborn, and does not believe in audibles. Just look at his post game comments, in the Wilson article. He basically blames the receivers for not creating separation, Joe for not pinning it in those windows, and the offensive line for not holding up. But wait? What about the gameplan? We just didn’t execute he says. He has no accountability and unfortunately, just seems to be the type of OC he is, not going to change. He says Joe has the freedom to make “suggestions,” and then “I’ll make the call.” NO. You let the QB do his thing and let him be a QB.
Bottom line is if you were to realistically replace John Harbaugh, Joe Flacco, or Cam Cameron right now, it becomes clear that Cameron is the weakest link.
by fedfan64 on Oct 28, 2011 12:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
All three have won and lost
the same number of games as Ravens. I personally think Cam is a problem, but Harbs has been outcoached so many times I can’t remember how many, including this past Monday night! Joe, well to me, what you see with Joe is what you are going to get. A second tier QB, who will look great one game and horrible the next. To me, that is around the 12th-15th best in the league, which honestly makes him an average NFL QB on a very good team.
Otherwise, you could name any player on the team who has been here the past three years and label them a winner but if they goes elsewhere that “winner” label may not go with them.
It’s just a total team game and other than Ray or perhaps Reed, no one makes the difference between winning and losing alone.
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Oct 28, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Examples please?
but Harbs has been outcoached so many times I can’t remember how many, including this past Monday night!
Don’t start with the onsides kick. You can say “bad decision” but not “outcoached” on that one.
"What we've got here is failure to communicate."
Forget about the onsides kick,
even the announcers and post game and next day sports channel guys were saying he was outcoached.
I can’t believe there is any question that he has been consistently outcoach. Poor clock management, poor playcalling, poor defensive positioning (last year), poor preparation, lack or urgency, all parts of being outcoached, or not.
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Oct 28, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting
I didn’t realise you had jumped on the “Dump Harbaugh” bandwagon. But then again, you jump on and off so many bandwagons so frequently, it is hard keeping up with you.
"What we've got here is failure to communicate."
I can’t believe there is any question that he has been consistently outcoach. Poor clock management, poor playcalling, poor defensive positioning (last year), poor preparation, lack or urgency, all parts of being outcoached, or not.
I have to disagree, but what I think is going on may be worse. He has no control over this team. He’s a good motivator, but he lets his other coaches have complete control over the team on game day. He doesn’t hold them accountable or do enough to get them to change the bad play calling, poor positioning, etc etc
I have to agree with this. I like Harbaugh and I think he is a good coach, but not a good coach on gameday. He’s like Rex in that he gets his guys fired up and prepared, but he’s screwed if things don’t go perfectly cause he gets flustered and in his head too much.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 30, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
I never liked cameron even when he started 4 years ago. If anyone has an argument against this^^^^^youre either in denial or totally delusional. This hits the nail right on the head. Cameron is a garbage coach. Period.
by Ravens4Life on Oct 28, 2011 12:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m not saying this is who I feel is entirely to blame, but I find myself growing less and less fond of Oher with every passing week. With all these new penalties being thrown around for “illegal hits” and “defenseless receivers” on defensive players, Mr. Blind Side himself has still managed to lead the league in penalties. WTF?! When we moved him back to RT, I thought it was going to make him look better, but his same false start bullshit followed him over. He needs to get his shit together, or he very well could end up in Harb’s dog house…
"Is adult entertainment killing our children, or is killing children entertaining adults?"
-Marilyn Manson
by StuckInUtah on Oct 28, 2011 12:53 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Our entire line has been shit in 3 games year.
The writer formerly known as This White Man Can Jump; Powah Stached; Bear Killer; Da Dude; The Other Bambino; TJ Dropped The Season; Harbaugh Is My Co-Pilot; Billick's Alter Ego; Mr. Poopy Pants.
Worse than Ben's?
and I don’t see him complaining or using it as an excuse.
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Oct 28, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Ben also has 3 WRs that can get open. We don’t have a line or WRs that can do anything all game long. Joe has to have 1 of them to be able to do something.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Ben also has 3 WRs that can get open. We don’t have a line or WRs that can do anything all game long. Joe has to have 1 of them to be able to do something.
Those receivers also run more than 3 routes, and actually are allowed to go near the middle of the field. This offense we have here is atrocious, just a terrible system that can not succeed in the NFL on a consistent basis.
Is it just me or during that TD drive, did we used the middle of the field a LOT? The time where you are supposed to use the sides of the field to stop the clock and we force everyone into the middle of the field. And the result was an easy TD march.
That right there shows that Cam should be canned.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 30, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I've seen this since his first year here
I don’t know why it still hasn’t been addressed, it’s the biggest problem for our offense. When the opposing D only has to play half the field, it makes it much easier for them. Cam just refuses to use the middle of the field in the passing game.
I feel like if Aaron Rodgers was our quarterback with Cam Cameron as the offensive coordinator the offense would had perform better by now.
I understand Cam Cameron call some bad plays but Ravens fans need to stop defending Joe Flacco like he still the innocent baby in pampers; This is his fourth year and it should be no more excuse for him and should play better by now.
Yes his o-line suck some times, yes his wideouts/ tight ends are very young inexperienced , and more but I have seen quarterbacks in the same positon but was able to still make plays and lead his offense to victory. If Cam really is the problem then you might as well say we not making it to the super bowl this year also get your popcorn ready because the ravens offense needs T.O :) lol
NO LEE EVANS= WE NEED T.O GET YOUR POP CORN READY!!!
by jazz20 on Oct 28, 2011 12:57 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If I was the OC with Rodgers as my QB, I could direct that man to 28 points. He is a freak.
Flacco has to trust his receivers to make catches, but shouldn’t throw towards coverage. He needs to attack deep more often, but shouldn’t hold onto the ball so long. He needs to show more awareness in the pocket and move to extend plays, but nothing good comes of him leaving the pocket. He should run with the ball if nobody’s open, but he definitely can’t run with the ball.
Flacco should have the awareness of Roethlisberger, the elusiveness of Vick, the control of the offense of Manning, the leadership of Brady, the accuracy of Brees, and the arm strength of … Flacco? - Ampallang
I feel like if Aaron Rodgers was our quarterback with Cam Cameron as the offensive coordinator the offense would had perform better by now.
No crap. I think any offense would perform better with arguably the best QB in the NFL. I think our O line would be better if we had Joe thomas and chris long too.
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
I feel like if Aaron Rodgers was our quarterback with Cam Cameron as the offensive coordinator the offense would had perform better by now.
This is the issue right here. Its the expectations on the fans that determine who the odd man out is in Baltimore. People that expect Flacco to be the best QB in the league right now blame Flacco. People that are realistic and understand that Flacco just hasn’t had the tools or the time to develop into the best QB in the league realize that Cam is the issue here.
How can anyone in this town expect any QB we draft to be the best in the league and then blame the guy for every problem when he isn’t the best?
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
EXACTLY
If you’re comparing Flacco to the top tier QB’s, then it’s fairly obvious Joe’s’ a good quarterback because you’re just searching for better ones to compare him to. The Big Five would make ANY TEAM better.
Here’s a random biased stat I’ll throw in Flacco’s favor. Only three QB’s in the past two years have thrown 3 passing TD’s against the Steelers: Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers,… and Joe Flacco.
Let’s remember that Harbaugh and Cameron came into this season under pressure because of their performance last season. At what point do they start to show that they’re able to do their job at an elite level?
We had an “easy” schedule and a stacked team last season… where did that get us?
We have an “easy” schedule this year… what will it get us? We have pitt showing us how to beat jax and zona… what does that get us? How can mendenhall rush 12 times in the first half versus jax and cameron not be aware of his success? how about harbaugh? what type of executive is he? is he calling the shots based on his master plan or are the ravens coaches winging it from week to week?
TO? I heard palmer and the raiders are begging him to go play in oakland
Let’s remember that Harbaugh and Cameron came into this season under pressure because of their performance last season. At what point do they start to show that they’re able to do their job at an elite level?
At what level have the players besides the one on defense have shown they can do their job at a elite level.
We had an "easy" schedule and a stacked team last season… where did that get us?
The playoffs and loss to the steelers. If you want to blame to coaches on that playoff loss then I highly suggest you get your eyes check out or did you even watch the game at all.
How can mendenhall rush 12 times in the first half versus jax and cameron not be aware of his success? how about harbaugh? what type of executive is he? is he calling the shots based on his master plan or are the ravens coaches winging it from week to week?
The last time I checked Ray Rice wasnt going any where when he was running the ball and I think its paththic how the o-line held up when it came to running the ball.
NO LEE EVANS= WE NEED T.O GET YOUR POP CORN READY!!!
Don’t get too down on yourself.
The writer formerly known as This White Man Can Jump; Powah Stached; Bear Killer; Da Dude; The Other Bambino; TJ Dropped The Season; Harbaugh Is My Co-Pilot; Billick's Alter Ego; Mr. Poopy Pants.
by El.Dude on Oct 28, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Haha. Nice
"Is adult entertainment killing our children, or is killing children entertaining adults?"
-Marilyn Manson
by StuckInUtah on Oct 28, 2011 3:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Flacco needs to trust heiw guys to make a play instead of holding it. Trust Dickson and Boldin.
by Raven_all_day on Oct 28, 2011 1:19 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
We need to have plays for Dickson and Boldin first. Stop throwing to Laquan Williams and David Reed!
Flacco has to trust his receivers to make catches, but shouldn’t throw towards coverage. He needs to attack deep more often, but shouldn’t hold onto the ball so long. He needs to show more awareness in the pocket and move to extend plays, but nothing good comes of him leaving the pocket. He should run with the ball if nobody’s open, but he definitely can’t run with the ball.
Flacco should have the awareness of Roethlisberger, the elusiveness of Vick, the control of the offense of Manning, the leadership of Brady, the accuracy of Brees, and the arm strength of … Flacco? - Ampallang
Thats tough to answer.
Cam Cameron wants to chuck it around the yard one and not run the football. Next game, he’ll run the football and forget about the passing game. He drives me nuts. Then there is Flacco. I like Flacco. I’ll root for Flacco all day everyday, but he gives me pause for concern. He just shouldn’t be running in one direction and throwing across his body. It just shouldn’t happen. Its his fourth year in the league and there is plenty of talent on the team for him to succeed. It feels like he hasn’t taken that next step to elite. You could make the argument that he has regress and that’s troubling especially when facing a good defense.
Some Thoughts
After re-looking at some of Monday’s high low lights, I am going to lay two thirds of the blame on lack of execution by the O-Line. I would need Filmstudy to back me up, but they, as a unit, collectively played not just with their heads up their a$$es, but up each others’ a$$.
I think Joe is like Brady -don’t laugh. If you can punch him in the mouth early, you can rattle him and throw him off for the rest of the game. Even Peyton, when he takes a beating, usually dusts himself off and gets right back at it (part of it is that when Peyton sees a hit coming he folds up like a paper airplane, almost as if he is acknowledging, “okay, you got me on that one”, and the he hits a thirty yard strike on the next play…)
Joe getting hit in the mouth- that is why I think teams have started to put pressure up the middle vice edges because they think that confuses Joe. Joe seems to move better in the pocket when he is feeling pressure from one side or the other, but up the middle he seems lost at times. I think opposing defenses are game-planning to get to Joe, even if it does not result in a sack, but at least a hit very early in the game. Joe is physically tough from an injury perspective, but mentally he may be a little lacking. Not that I ever was a proponent of it as I thought it was a bunch of hooey, but maybe Joe needs a sports psychologist -due the visualization thing.
To wit about teams pressuring early in the first quarter; maybe rather than coming out throwing, maybe we need to come out running – even if the first one or two series are three and outs – just run the ball. No matter how good Joe is, we, for at least this season, are still a running team. We should play more to our strengths. Rice is a beast -ride that beast. There is a theory that you should game-plan to your opponents weakness. I think we are outsmarting ourselves in that department (Cam Cam Cam Cam Cam). We should game-plan to our strengths, first and foremost. I know Cam has visions of Air Coryell dancing in his head like sugar plum fairies, but, and I could be wrong about this, but to these eyes, it appears we have more West Coast Offense personnel than Air Coryell personnel.
One other subtle observation that has been nagging at me since early Tuesday morning is Joe’s game-ending pick. Not just that it was a really, really bad interception, but something else. We have made the observation that the Ravens’ offense ignores the middle third of the field. After watching that pick, I am beginning to wonder if the coaches really do not trust Joe working the middle third of the field. Quick slants up the middle it does not matter if Joe locks onto the receiver because the play happens so quick no time to look off. But a crossing pattern, when Joe’s head looks like a radar antenna locked onto a target going from left to right in perfect synch with the receiver crossing, I was surprised there were not three Jax players colliding into each other for the pick. Maybe Flacco does have a flaw in his game- and that is playing the middle of the field. Or at least he has not earned the coaches’ trust in playing the middle of the field. Maybe his middle game has not really progressed during his tenure in the NFL, yet. No reason why it can’t, and maybe it is one of those mid-career corrections that he as a professional athlete, he has to change.
Someone else also suggested that when Joe has to move out of the pocket, maybe he should tuck the ball in (properly-!) and run for a few yards rather than trying to make a perfect pass while on the run. He is not going to bob-and-weave for a touchdown, but if he converts a third down on a scramble every now and then, it would give defenses something else to think about. Whoever it was who stated it before, they were right- Jax had nobody home if Joe decided to run with it.
Look, at this point, I still believe in Joe. Does he need to rapidly and greatly improve his game, emphatically yes. Can he take us to the promised land? No doubt in my mind (nor should there be in anybody else’s).
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
Cool Story Bro.
Flacco has to trust his receivers to make catches, but shouldn’t throw towards coverage. He needs to attack deep more often, but shouldn’t hold onto the ball so long. He needs to show more awareness in the pocket and move to extend plays, but nothing good comes of him leaving the pocket. He should run with the ball if nobody’s open, but he definitely can’t run with the ball.
Flacco should have the awareness of Roethlisberger, the elusiveness of Vick, the control of the offense of Manning, the leadership of Brady, the accuracy of Brees, and the arm strength of … Flacco? - Ampallang
+1
Pure genius, and it needed to be said. If I could make this my sig, I would. I’m not saying that Joe doesn’t deserve any of the blame for Monday’s game, but he shouldn’t be burned at the stake like a lot of other guys around here seem like this week.
"Is adult entertainment killing our children, or is killing children entertaining adults?"
-Marilyn Manson
by StuckInUtah on Oct 28, 2011 6:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hey vlad, great points
but think about this: What if the o-line was great, but Cam doesn’t get the play into Joe until right before the mic turns off in his helmet, Joe gets to the LOS with seconds left on the clock and has to throw the ball without really even checking the defense, much less having a chance to audible. He throws into coverage on his first read for an incompletion or pick, or double-clutches and runs to the wrong non-throwing arm side, blah blah blah. See, even a great o-line doesn’t cure the ills.
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Oct 28, 2011 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
But we don’t know what he’ll do with a great Oline cause he hasn’t had one. Its all well and good to guess how Flacco would be if he had the tools around him, but to argue based off of what we think would happen is irrelevant. Lets get Cam outta here and see how Joe does with better playcalling… then lets get a better Oline around him and see how he does. If Joe can’t get it figured out at that point, then he can be considered mediocre at best.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
You Bring
Up a valid point.
But first we need a good O-line to run your experiment.
There seems to be a theme that it takes the Ravens much longer to get the play in and get to LOS than other teams. I would be very most interested to see what Filmstudy had to say about that, if it was even measurable.
But we maybe on to something: it seems like most QB’s are given enough time to walk up to the line of scrimmage, survey the defense and make mid-course corrections. Flacco may be put into a disadvantage even before the snap. And that is on Cam.
"A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
"The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug."
"God's whiskers! Your face is as hideous as the demon's in my storybook!"
"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
Here are some stats from last year on all the QBs.
•Flacco:
489 att / 62.6 comp % / 3622 yds / 25 TDs / 10 INT / 40 sacks
•Rodgers:
475 att / 65.7 comp % / 3922 yds / 28 TDs / 11 Ints / 31 sacks
•Brady:
492 att / 65.9 comp % / 3900 yds / 36 TDs / 4 Ints / 25 sacks
•Eli Manning:
539 att / 62.9 comp % / 4002 yds / 31 TDs / 25 Ints / 16 sacks
•Peyton Manning:
679 att / 66.3 comp % / 4700 yds / 33 TDs / 17 Ints / 16 sacks
So there they are, the “best of the best” in the league. Flacco’s percentage is pretty close, the yardage is pretty close for the number of passes thrown, the TD INT rate is pretty close to everyone, and the sacks…. well the sacks are over DOUBLE what these guys have to deal with.
So here we have it, Flacco is hitting similar numbers to the “elite” QBs in the league, but while getting hit on a more regular basis. So if it isnt the QB, then lets look at our WRs to see how they did. Surely with those numbers, we have to have a guy with over 1000 yards right?
•Anquan Boldin
64 receptions / 837 yards / 13.1 average
•Derrick Mason
61 receptions / 802 yards / 13.1 average
•Todd Heap
40 receptions / 599 yards / 15.0 average
•Ray Rice
63 receptions / 556 yards / 8.8 average
Hmm, well we don’t seem to have a strong WR force around here. So lets look at the best Qb in the league and see where his WRs are in comparison…
•Greg Jennings
76 receptions / 1265 yards / 16.6 average
•James Jones
50 receptions / 679 yards / 13.6 average
•Jordy Nelson
45 receptions / 582 yards / 12.9 average
Well there you go. They have a premier #1 WR that catches the ball and makes plays. Then they have other guys that play 2nd fiddle with the same average as our top guys
Combine the number of hits Joe has, with the low statistics of his WRs and you can see a better picture here. Joe isn’t all the problem, he has his issues, but its harder to perform with more hits and no playmaker in the WR corps. Lets give the QB a little bit of a break here and place the blame on the guys not doing their jobs.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 5:13 PM EDT reply actions
sorry for the long ass post
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Not fair comparison
Those elite guys are obvious excellent passers but Joe’s stats are grossly skewed with great games against the bottom feeders of the league and rough ones in crucial games.
That’s why there continues to be only one stat I give total credit to: Points-Allowed (defense).
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Oct 28, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
But your telling me that Rodgers, Brady and Manning didn’t go up against some bottom feeders as well? Then by your admission, they also suck against better defenses then if they have similar numbers, but they do well over the bottom feeders to skew their numbers as well.
That turns this argument from something about factual numbers into “well yeah, but Joe sucks so that doesn’t really tell the truth” which is a BS argument when given facts. That is more of an opinion based on what you’ve seen and not from the numbers.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
+1000
Great stat post Mstevens. I’m with ya.
Monkey Feces for OC.
re: Big Ben - "God can have his soul. His ass is mine." - Terrell Suggs
by GrumpyOldBird on Oct 28, 2011 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks Grump. I think some people around here have secretly always doubted Flacco and now that he has a game like that, it gets upgraded to hate. When you look at the numbers, its pretty clear that Flacco is an above average QB as you don’t get those types of numbers by being crappy. I think with a proper OC, he could upgrade those numbers slightly into the “elite” numbers of Rodgers and Brady.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Almost ALL of them. Maybe not officially #1, but certainly top 5 at least in the years they won.
Monkey Feces for OC.
re: Big Ben - "God can have his soul. His ass is mine." - Terrell Suggs
by GrumpyOldBird on Oct 28, 2011 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
That doesnt even matter to this argument. None of these stats pertain to defense, but what the QB can do with the number of chances given to them. He is right up there with the best of the best this league has to offer and that is the discussion, not what the defense gives him since that doesn’t count towards how many yards he throws for or his comp %
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 29, 2011 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions
And of course, these numbers can be blamed on Cam for not calling the right plays to maximize WRs that aren’t fast enough to get separation and to bring some help for the OLine. If Cam put Joe in more shotgun sets, the number of sacks would go down and his comp % and his yardage would go up.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at what he's working with this year
New O-line (struggling now without Grubbs), one proven vet in Boldin, a free agent acquisition who was supposed to play an integral part in our offense is hurt, and a bunch of rookies without training camp. I can’t stress that enough. Every team we play is BRAND NEW for each of the rookies. We haven’t played with a healthy team this entire year. We’re 4-2, and 1-0 in our division. CALM DOWN PEOPLE
You cannot ignore that these are facts.
One proven Vet in Boldin that has accounted for not very many yards. He’s getting too old and not getting open to go along with that line. The team needs to play better and we should be undefeated right now given the 2 teams we lost to. But that being said, those 2 losses arent on Flacco solely but a mix of the gameplan, the Oline, the WRs and the running game not doing anything.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I just can't wait for Evans to get back
He said he’s progressed a lot and is in the final stages of recuperation… It’s going to be great!
I still bet it’s December before we maybe see Evans back.
Monkey Feces for OC.
re: Big Ben - "God can have his soul. His ass is mine." - Terrell Suggs
by GrumpyOldBird on Oct 28, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
This just makes it worse.
Your argument suggests that Flacco should be taking the next step to be in the elite class. I think he’s better Eli, FWIW. Anyway, Flacco should be doing work and getting better and accurate. When you’re nearly next to last in the league in accuracy, we have problems. Serious problems. I want progression; not regression. I see more of the latter than the former. Flacco just needs to step his game up.
Lets give the QB a little bit of a break here and place the blame on the guys not doing their jobs.
Nah.
When you’re nearly next to last in the league in accuracy, we have problems.
Not too sure, but I believe we throw the most bombs in the league right now. With that type of playcalling, it makes it hard to get a higher completion percentage. No QB in the league is going to be able to complete 70% when you throw nothing but bombs or short routes to slow WRs, it just isn’t built to happen like that.
Your argument suggests that Flacco should be taking the next step to be in the elite class
My argument is that he’s right next to elite and that even those “elite” guys wouldnt be able to do anything with what we’ve got. We just don’t have the weapons, the blocking or the playcalling to be an “elite” offense. The numbers don’t lie and according to them, he’s right up there with the Brady’s and Manning’s of the NFL.
I want progression; not regression. I see more of the latter than the former.
You see regression because of the playcalling. Last year, he had solid numbers. This year, we are trying to force the ball downfield because Cam wants us to and its causing the numbers to look crappy. Add in a horrible Oline and take away the only guy that got open last year (Mason) and you are sitting with an offense that is trying to do more than the weapons allows it to do. That isn’t Joe’s fault that Cam refuses to acknowledge that WRs arent getting open and it isn’t his fault for not having a higher comp % when he has no one open to throw to.
My whole point is that Flacco hasnt been given what these other “elite” QBs have and he still rises close to their level. Imagine what he would do with an offensive line that could block or WRs that could get open ever?
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Cool enough with me. Glad to meet someone on here that can just agree to disagree about something without getting an attitude or resort to personal attacks because we don’t agree.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 29, 2011 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
This year, we are trying to force the ball downfield because Cam wants us to and its causing the numbers to look crappy
first ravens fans were saying last year that we need a speedy wideout for joe flacco to throw to inorder for him to use his rocket arm more often but now throwing down the field is too much.
You see regression because of the playcalling. Last year, he had solid numbers
Joe Flacco has not regress because of playing calling. Matter of fact their was a article talking about young quarterbacks in this league that have seemed to regress because of the lockout. Matt Ryan, Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco have all regressed since the lockout.
If Cam Cameron really hasn’t changed from last year then Joe Flacco stats wouldnt have regressed. I think it common sense that
Last year, he had solid numbers.
Last year he had solid veteran that were smart this year he has bunch of new guys that are still learning the nfl on the go. I dont understand why that is so hard for some ravens fans to understand but honestly believe what you want to believe; If you think Cam is the overall problem for the ravens offense then believe that
NO LEE EVANS= WE NEED T.O GET YOUR POP CORN READY!!!
first ravens fans were saying last year that we need a speedy wideout for joe flacco to throw to inorder for him to use his rocket arm more often but now throwing down the field is too much.
Yeah, we did – and we do need a deep game. But not on EVERY play.
"Cameron is the weakest link" - fedfan64
re: Big Ben - "God can have his soul. His ass is mine." - Terrell Suggs
by GrumpyOldBird on Oct 29, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
E, Flacco was “born” into this league to dysfunctional parents.
by Evan Skev on Oct 28, 2011 6:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Solid! Definitely well said.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
You can’t be consistent when your only OC isn’t consistent. Nature vs. Nurture here.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
As I used to tell my kids when they were wee little ones and able to be influenced:
Excuses are just reasons why you didn’t do what you knew you should have done.
aka 'Rexx'
I’ve always hated that statement. Its fine for something like “but I couldn’t do my homework cause it was too hard” when its obviously BS. But when its something like “I couldn’t do my homework because my house burnt down in the middle of it”. Both end with the same result, but 2 are for very different reasons with 1 being completely out of that person’s control and near impossible to complete.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 28, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Going to the game Sunday
Haven’t decided yet if it’s coat or hoodie weather. Weird temperatures this time of year, suggestions?
…says the fair weather fan…
"Is adult entertainment killing our children, or is killing children entertaining adults?"
-Marilyn Manson
by StuckInUtah on Oct 28, 2011 8:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Good one.
Monkey Feces for OC.
re: Big Ben - "God can have his soul. His ass is mine." - Terrell Suggs
by GrumpyOldBird on Oct 28, 2011 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
31 teams have a bridesmaid dress on every year. The fact we are even invited to the wedding every year should make everyone happy given the limited seating.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 29, 2011 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not happy being invited to the wedding anymore.
I want to seal the deal dammit!
Just a fan that wants to win
This bridesmaids dress is starting to grow mold.
There are 32 teams in the NFL. Every team wants to win every year. This isn’t college where Catonsville Community College can win the Saiontz and Kirk Bowl. There is only 1 Super Bowl winner every year. So, on average, every team should win once in 32 years. Of course that isn’t going to happen, either. We have a team that won a Super Bowl last decade. Many fans don’t see a champion in their entire lifespan.
We have been lucky to have a team that goes to the playoffs more often than not, has had arguably the best defense of all time and won a title with it, had a RB who nearly broke the single season rushing mark, and has been an overall good, entertaining team. We’ve had one of the best LTs of all time in Ogden, maybe the best defensive player, and certainly the best MLB of all time in Ray Lewis, arguably the best overall, and certainly the best ball hawking safety of all time in Ed Reed.
We have been one the the prettiest “bridesmaids” since the beginning of this franchise in this city. We were a one time bride, and will hopefully get there again, and again, and again, and again. I want us to be more prolific at being a bride than Elizabeth Taylor. If that happens, great. If not, be happy to be a fan of one of the best franchises in sports.
I want us to be more prolific at being a bride than Elizabeth Taylor
Amazing reference!
I get where people are coming from that they expect more out of our team as do I. But anyone that is blaming Flacco for the past decade is insane when we clearly weren’t getting it done with McNair in town either and arguably a better defense. Yet we hold a QB that is in his 4th year to some higher standard than a SuperBowl QB with much more experience.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 30, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Probably depends how much it snows Saturday night.
Monkey Feces for OC.
re: Big Ben - "God can have his soul. His ass is mine." - Terrell Suggs
by GrumpyOldBird on Oct 28, 2011 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree what fedfan64 said above and you have to take into account that the offense is very young and inexperienced.
I know alot of people want to blame cam and want to see him go but i think overall the lack of execution is the blame for the ravens offensive problems on monday.
The Jagaurs defense have alot good experienced/intelligent veterans and when you have experienced/intelligent veterans versus a young/inexperienced/still learning players on offense most likely the defense is going to win.
The offense is young let me say that again THE OFFENSE IS YOUNG lol. I know alot of people want to see the ravens offense do great but chemistry dont happen over night. Joe Flacco still needs to get better and I expect for him to get better but it’s just a matter of when.
NO LEE EVANS= WE NEED T.O GET YOUR POP CORN READY!!!
J-dub, what’s up with your sig? Did someone hack your account? That’s horrible…
"Is adult entertainment killing our children, or is killing children entertaining adults?"
-Marilyn Manson
just trying to be funny in a way when i did that.
NO LEE EVANS= WE NEED T.O GET YOUR POP CORN READY!!!
We blame Cam because this is nothing new with him. While Monday wasnt all his fault as anyone can have a crap gameplan from the start, Cam is notorious for panicking and abandoning the run when we are down by 3 points and passing 40+ times a game or if we are up, running dive plays up the middle for 1 yards and punting. The man is consistently awful on that and so inconsistent in his original gameplans that it is infuriating. It almost looks like a brand new OC that is trying things out to see what works and learning on the job and from a guy with such a huge background in football, we expect better from him.
The offense is new and things still need to gel a bit. But that isn’t what killed Monday and it isn’t what has killed us in the past 4 years. Most of that comes from Cam just not being able to get the job done and needing a QB to be an OC for him, yet not giving Flacco the ability to do that.
My biggest problem with a lot of people is the way they treat Flacco for everything. Its like having your dad ask you to mow the lawn, then when you come in he yells at you for not cleaning your room during that time. How are you supposed to do something when you aren’t given any tools to do it.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 29, 2011 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
We blame Cam because this is nothing new with him
I think you’ll blame cam even if it was something new with him and I could be wrong but it seems like that. I feel like the ravens offense just didnt execute and I feel like this quote explains all
My hope with this column was to give more detail about our offensive failures. To give some insight to show that’s it’s not all Cam or Joe’s fault. I had one of our personnel experts, who grades each of our players every play in every game, and one of our coaches, show me the failures on tape.
Man, do I have a list. I watched four of the first-half series when we produced no first downs. You know what I saw – a lack of execution. Sometimes it was a lineman. Another time it was a back running to the wrong hole or trying to do too much. One instance, it was a young receiver thrown off a route by a veteran defensive back. And, yes, Joe did miss somebody running free down the field on another play.
These things happen even with successful plays. They happen every game. Most are physical errors – someone dominating another player.
I could give you the names of those who did not get it done on every one of these plays. But, I won’t. I won’t publicly throw anyone under the bus. That’s not what we do. It’s hard enough keeping a team together without internal finger pointing
you have said that it wasn’t all cam fault your self but constantly you post as if it was all his fault. If you say its not all cam fault and believe it wasn’t all flacco fault then where are you going with this? I have faith things will get better as these young guys grow/learn and if you dont believe that and still think cams needs to go then i guess you might as well say this is not our super bowl year
NO LEE EVANS= WE NEED T.O GET YOUR POP CORN READY!!!
Jazz – it wasn’t all Cam’s fault, of course not. But it’s about 85-90% Cam’s fault. Cam makes the plan. Cam calls the plays. And they are bad. They are amateurish. They are naive and substandard.
It would be the same if Cam was an architect and designed a house you wanted built. If the house fell down from bad construction, that would be one thing and you could sue the contractor. But, if the design and engineering was completely substandard (say he designs a house on stilts directly over an earthquake fault), then it’s going to fall down no matter how well executed the construction is. And you sue the architect.
"Cameron is the weakest link" - fedfan64
re: Big Ben - "God can have his soul. His ass is mine." - Terrell Suggs
by GrumpyOldBird on Oct 29, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Im not saying Cam didnt have any fault but the jagaurs secondary/defense were mostly in press man coverage.
I look at a article to find out how to beat press man coverage and this what it had to say.
Against press coverage teams you always want to take vertical shots downfield early as well as run “shallow” routes.
If you throw a lot of timing routes like slants, arrows, short hitches and screens, press coverage often completely disrupts the timing and effectiveness of these plays. On longer routes the defensive strategy is to take receivers off their route paths and slow them down, giving the blitzing linebackers more time to sack the quarterback before the receiver can get open or to his spot
NO LEE EVANS= WE NEED T.O GET YOUR POP CORN READY!!!
Another way to counteract man press coverage is by technique. First your receivers must have their hands where they can do them some good, at chest level, not at their sides. If a receiver wants to get outside, he can use a swim move to get by the defender. If he wants to go inside he can use a rip move,
If you have a dominant athletic pass catcher and the defender is less physical than your man, these are effective techniques to beat press coverage.
NO LEE EVANS= WE NEED T.O GET YOUR POP CORN READY!!!
Couple things jazz – first, can you please identify these snippets from articles when you post them, so we can know who’s talking? (something like, “blah blah blah.” – John Smith, Football Explained book). It would be helpful to know if the person you’re quoting knows what they’re talking about. Also, when were these quotes written? Especially that last one about out muscling your defender – sounds fine in 1990, today, with all the rule changes, probably gets you offensive PI.
Back to that actual quotes – in the first one above, the writer calls for a mix of deep and shallow routes – we never run shallow routes except for short out patterns or screens to the flat. And we never run slants.
The key problem is that, while these quotes reference sound football guidelines (to my eye), they don’t take into account an OC who won’t adjust when something isn’t working. They tell you that press coverage will disrupt timing routes. Yep, quite correct. That’s where Cam fails. You need to figure out what to do to get around the press coverage. This is what all us Cam-bashers have been talking about. He’s not capable (or just unwilling) to make any adjustments to his precious game plan to fix what’s not working when necessary.
"Cameron is the weakest link" - fedfan64
re: Big Ben - "God can have his soul. His ass is mine." - Terrell Suggs
by GrumpyOldBird on Oct 29, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
the link to the information is here
it doesn’t say when the article was made but i dont think it was made in the 90’s
NO LEE EVANS= WE NEED T.O GET YOUR POP CORN READY!!!
3 Ways to Beat Press Coverage in Youth Football
While the principles are similar, its 2 very different things from Pee-wee football and the NFL. Even from College and the NFL, it is a horribly different game.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 29, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
You need to figure out what to do to get around the press coverage. This is what all us Cam-bashers have been talking about. He’s not capable (or just unwilling) to make any adjustments to his precious game plan to fix what’s not working when necessary.
It isn’t even “Cam bashing”, it is just defending Joe against people that are blaming him for things that aren’t his fault. Jazz’s whole article snippets refer to the WRs getting separation for the offense to work.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 29, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I know it’s not bashing. I used the term because a few people (jazz included, I think) have referred to those of us putting a majority of the blame on Cam as bashers or blamers or something to that effect. Just a short cut to identifying our “group”.
And right – separation is key, but if the receivers aren’t getting it from the plays in the plan, (as we’ve all said, I think just over a million times now), the plan must be adjusted to give the receivers a better chance and Cam just won’t.
"Cameron is the weakest link" - fedfan64
re: Big Ben - "God can have his soul. His ass is mine." - Terrell Suggs
by GrumpyOldBird on Oct 29, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly. the receivers can be blamed to a certain extent,
but hey! If the original game plan isn’t working, CHANGE IT! Help out your team for goodness sake! The point is to win isn’t it? If something isn’t working and let’s say the receivers aren’t getting success using a tactic, change it so that it’ll give a different look! If we are able to understand this, then the damn OC better be able to as well
Oh dead on. I’m just trying to hit a middle ground for us bashers and the Flacco haters. I feel like if I can show that the WRs aren’t getting the job done, then it clearly isn’t all Flacco’s fault. If I can get them to admit that, then its a very short jump back to “Monkey Feces for OC!”
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 30, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
But I absolutely do blame Cam for not giving the WRs the routes to get separation. I also blame him for not helping the Oline when they are getting beat every play.
Monkey Feces for OC!
by Mstevens_Design on Oct 30, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
flacco
I am listening to everyone saying this and saying that.I’ll say this four years in the league as the starting QB making it to the play off games and losing because of rookie mistakes and we forgive him and say give him time. Our top defense are almost over the hill so what happens when flacco finally is ready. We will need to rebuild our defense. This almost reminds me of billeck and boller forgive me if i misspelled their names but look at all of the time we lost with that two and our defense was 100% then. We do not have time for flacco he is taking too long to become a leader. The skills are there but I don’t think the heart is.
grego1
Do you know much about our team? If you did you would know that our D is not aging. Our D is loaded with young talent, so not quite sure where you got that from.
On Ed Reed:
"I’ve told him to his face many times, ‘You’re the greatest safety ever to play the game,’"
"We all learn from each other, but we all learn most from him."
- Troy Polamalu
Well, Both
Ray-Ray and Ed are members of AARP, so there…
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"I never expected to see the day when girls would get sunburned in the places they do today."
"It's big for a reason."
For Pittsburgh fans, that's Pope, Twain, Rostand, Rogers and Megamind
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