Troy Smith to the Eagles?
by Bruce Raffel on Jul 8, 2010 7:00 AM EDT
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Apparently fed up with the continued poor decision-making off of the field by backup QB Michael Vick, the Philadelphia Eagles are reportedly interested in the Baltimore Ravens backup QB, Troy Smith. Smith is disgruntled that the Ravens were not able to trade him in the off season, at one point allegedly stating that he he would "crawl back to Cleveland on his hands and knees" according to his former agent.
The Ravens have also recently signed former St. Louis Rams QB Marc Bulger and also have John Beck on the depth chart. Smith has been rumored as the odd man out, but will plan on reporting to camp with the rest of the team in late-July, ignoring the rumors and trying his best to be a more visible part of this offense.
The Eagles traded starter Donovan McNabb to the Washington Redskins and promoted backup Kevin Kolb to the starting position, with Vick as the backup. However, after the recent shooting at Vick's birthday party, questionable circumstances remain unsolved surrounding the case, such that the team may decide to cut bait rather than continue to fish with Vick.
Check out the full story over at ProFootballTalk.com.
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Troy would be in same situation as last year with us if he went to the Iggles. He should really be lobbying to Ozzie(behind closed doors) for a trade to Buffalo before Training camp. That’s the only team I see him having a legit shot to start.
I think Philly is a good fit
They are commited to the Wildcat and have had almost as much success as anyone other than Miami with it. Certainly more chances than with us. Besides, while Kolb is the starter, he is way less proven than even Flacco and could very well earn the starting gig if Kolb falters.
aka 'Rexx'
I Think
Bruce is right on this. Kolb is no guarantee to work out -he could very easily falter. If the Eagles stumble out of the gate, say, 1 – 4, and Kolb is not exactly lighting the world on fire, then whomever is the #2 will have a golden opportunity.
Smith’s best chance to start may be a situation like Philly, because it is rare that a team will just hand the starter’s position to a relatively unproven outsider. In other words, a team like Buffalo, with acknowledged QB issues, may still be reticent to hand the reins to a Smith…
Your arguement doesn’t make sense. Troy would be exactly that, an “unproven outsider” in Philly or Buffalo. Yes, Smith would have to win the job in Buffalo like anywhere else.
If you think he’s going to get any oppurtunity to start quicker in Philly than Buffalo, you smoking something. Reid hitched his coat tails to Kolb when he traded his pro bowl QB in the Division. Reid’s gonna ride this one out with Kolb the entire season baring injury. Not to mention they have former # 1 overall pick in Michael Vick who’s started and been succesful in the league as their # 2.
In Buffalo it’s an open competition with QB’s who haven’t proven anything yet. Not to mention the coaching staff didn’t draft any of the QB’s, so there should be no biases.
What I am saying
is that if Philly gets Troy, then the Eagles will have time to evaluate him in their system. I am by no means stating that they would hand the reins to him from day one (obviously-!). I do believe they may not be 100% comfortable with Vick as their #2 (cue Joe Jackson…), ergo their interest in Troy…
On its face, Reid did hitch his wagon to the Kolb horse; however we all know that in the NFL it comes down to wins and loses. Did it matter that Dilfer was at the helm when the Ravens won it all? No, it mattered that we won it all, period, We can (and have!) argue(d) how much Dilfer contributed, but at the end of the day we got the shiny new Lombardi and that is all that matters.
To my point, in Philly, all that matters is that they win. If they stumble because Kolb flubs, Reid has to switch QB’s -regardless of how much criticism he then takes for shipping out McNabb, especially if the newly promoted QB wins a string of games and gets them into the playoffs. You are right in one implication, if Philly does not have a good to great season, Reid is probably done there.
I do not know if Buffalo wants a Troy Smith-type of player -in their minds Troy may be more of the same of what they already have; ergo why I think Troy’s quicker path to starting may be through Philly, not Buffalo… As some one mentioned, if Buffalo really wanted to take a hard look at Troy, it would have cost them only a fifth round pick -!
If Reid would bench McNabb
then he wouldn’t thibnk twice about sitting Kolb if he was having a bad game. Think about this scenario: If Kolb is 1-4 and the next game goes out and throws a couple of bad picks in game six, so Reid starts Troy in the 2nd half and Troy leads the Eagles to a comeback victory. Think the radio shows are going to be bombarded with calls to give Troy a shot?
aka 'Rexx'
Anything is possible.
Reid did sit McNab when he knew he had a capable back-up to come in (Kolb, drafted personally by Reid). Kolb did move the ball on us that day. He looked better than McNab. Unfortunately he also did throw a terrible pass at the goaline and we all know what happened.
Kolb could have a bad game and get replaced during the second half. I don’t think Reid is gonna name anyone else starter during the season though. Look how long it took Billick to finally give up on Boller.
If Troy wants a legit shot to start this year, he should go to Buffalo.
how is troy smith a unproven player? last time I check this guy did start for the
ravens in his rookie year and he did ok
He Has
A handful of starts under his belt -hardly enough of a body of work to make a decision one way or the other.
Personally, I think he does have the capability to succeed in the NFL -probably better than a Kyle Boller, probably not as successful as a Flacco, Matt Ryan et al, but I think a Jason Campbell-caliber type QB is not out of the realm of possibilities for Troy.
Would be a good fit for Troy.
Kolb is the starter for sure, but does everyone really know how good he is going to be? I have always said that Troy’s style reminded me of McNabb. His throwing motion seem identical. Yea yea yea, I know, quit the man love.
Like Bruce stated above, their use of the Wildcat would fit Troy nicely. Now the question is, what does the trade involve?
"However, the true greatness of the Ravens’ line lies in their malevolence, led by right end Haloti Ngata. Simply put, Ngata can’t be blocked by mere mortals. He is not a product of the human species. He is really a creation of a building contractor, made of cinderblocks and some type of flesh-like covering. Throw in Kelly Gregg at nose tackle and behemoth rookie Terrence Cody and you have something truly frightening."
Well seeing as how nobody bit on his 5th round tender, I imagine it wouldn’t be anything better than a 6th or 7th rounder. Or maybe they just sit tight and see if we end up releasing him, who knows.
"Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
by StuckInUtah on Jul 8, 2010 4:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You’re probably right, but circumstances have changed if Goodell believes Vick violated the terms of his reinstatement.
by 60minuteassassin on Jul 8, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I really dont think the ravens should trade Troy Smith or anybody it doesnt make
sense. Marc Bulger hasnt proven anything in training camp yet and just becuase he made the pro bowl doesnt mean he automactically better then Troy Smith; Marc Bulger hasnt shown yet that he still is a good quarterback recently becuase of constant injuries,
You’re saying here that Marc Bulger isn’t proven, but you said above that Troy Smith is? Your thing with Bulger is just ridiculous. He showed the front office all they needed to see to award him a $3 million (and change) contract, which is more than Flacco will make in any year remaining in his contract. I’ll take their evaluation of a player over yours any day of the week.
Marc Bulger hasnt shown yet that he still is a good quarterback recently becuase of constant injuries,
It’s a lot harder to injure yourself on the bench than it is running for your life behind the Rams’ O-line (such as it is). Bulger is here primarily to mentor Flacco. The best you can say about Smith is that he throws off the whole rhythm of the offense because he’s a much different QB than Flacco.
In the worst case scenario of Flacco being unable to play for whatever reason, Bulger gives a us a serviceable backup who has actually proven that he can be trusted to handle the snaps. Before we signed him, Ozzie probably woke up screaming at night after dreaming that he had to rely on Troy Smith in the playoffs.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Marc Bulger is to come in and mentor Joe flacco and that is true but just becuase
he has proven in the past that he can be a good quarterback doesnt mean he not coming into traning camp to battle for the backup quarterback postion among Troy Smith and John Beck.. I know that the ravens sign Marc Bulger for a three million dollar contract but so what that does not mean he going to be on the roster when the season kick off.
I have nothing against Marc Bulger but all I’m saying is this he still has to prove himself and if im wrong then I guess Ken Hamlin wins the Free Safety postion becuase the other free safeties are not proven.
I have nothing against Marc Bulger but all I’m saying is this he still has to prove himself and if im wrong then I guess Ken Hamlin wins the Free Safety postion becuase the other free safeties are not proven.
You are wrong, but it has nothing to do with Ken Hamlin winning the Free Safety position. Zbikowski has filled in ably for Ed Reed; nobody has any confidence in Troy Smith or John Beck leading us to a Lombardi. Smith has played in 14 games over three years throwing an average of 6.4 passes per game. John Beck was the main contributor to the Dolphin’s 1-15 season. You don’t need to do much (if anything) to prove yourself over these guys.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
I was using Ken Hamlin as a example and we both know compare to Ken Hamlin
Stats and Tom Zibikowski stats, Ken Hamlin Stats out do his but still you said Zibikowski filled in nicely for Ed Reed but isnt Ken Hamlin more proven then him?, I agree with what you have said but what I’m really saying is that Marc Bulger may had awhole lot of success in the nfl but that doesnt mean he doesnt have competition among Troy Smith and John Beck.
I may seem wrong to you but if im wrong then I guess Marc Bulger doesnt need to be in training camp, he just needs to chill in the shade, study the play book and drink a glass lemonade.Ken Hamlin, Walt Harris, and Shayne Graham all have been Pro bowlers; these players are proven players but they still have to prove themselves in traning camp and the preseason that goes for Marc Bulger to.
Happy with getting Bulger but the thing I wonder about is whether at this stage in his career is he only considered a serviceable backup and will finish his career that way or does he have any starter potential? Just a curious question if you want to entertain it.
by purpleonblack86 on Jul 8, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I absolutely don’t want him starting here, unless the only other options are Troy Smith and John Beck. Hypothetically, though, it’s a tough call to make because of how poor the Rams have been as a whole over the past several years. It’s an interesting question, though.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
The benefit of Bulger over both Smith and Beck is
that if Flacco goes down, Bulger can come in without ANY change to the gameplan and run this offense. He is a classic pocket passer and with this o-line and receivers, he will be a more prolific passer than either of our current QB’s other than Flacco. If he had half the o-line that we do, he’d probablty still be in St. Louis, although just keeping the seat warm for Bradford. Now he can just sit back, knowing he’s an insurance policy and still have a great chance to get that ring he covets.
aka 'Rexx'
I understand that but also both John Beck and Troy Smith knows the playbook more then Marc Bulger, sure he can study it and can learn it in due time but I just really have faith in Troy Smith to Step up and show people why Coach John Haubaugh wanted to keep troy smith as the backup quarterback he is more then just a quarterback that can run he can throw as well check his stats out in college http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Smith
…Coach John Haubaugh wanted to keep troy smith as the backup quarterback…
What’s your source for this? Are you sure it wasn’t just coach-speak, a la Andy Reid (you know, that guy that mentored Harbaugh)? I think the most telling evidence is that he received a 5th round tender; that’s not a promising sign that Harbaugh’s planning on Smith being around for the next couple of years.
…check his stats out in college…
Check out his stats in the NFL: 53.9% career completion percentage, 6.4 attempts/game, 39.9 yards/game, and three touchdowns over the course of 14 games played. One way to look at this is that it isn’t a very significant sample size (he had season passer ratings of 21.3, 156.2, and 79.5!). Another way to look at it is that if “he is more then [sic] just a quarterback that can run,” he would have made the most of the opportunities.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I don’t understand all this Troy Smith love. He might be a good guy (rumors are that he’s not a popular guy in the locker room, though) and I hope he finds success in Buffalo or Philly, but he hasn’t actually done anything in Baltimore to merit this kind of popularity.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
all im really going to say is this we will see until training camp but
I still dont think anybody should really underestimate Troy Smith this year becuase he has alot to work hard for and prove himself.Coach John Haubaugh said he wants to have troy smith as our backup quarterback and he believes that he has starter quality which is located here (http://www.baltimoreravens.com/media_library/Videos/2010/02/Presser-_Harbaugh_gives_update_on_Troy_Smiths_trade_status.aspx?id=b54dfe00cdcb4c21a6576033c04fcee9)
Yeah, given the actions of the organization, I’m going to put that squarely in the category of Andy Reid coach speak. They gave Smith a 5th round tender. From that, it looks like they’re more than happy to move on without him. As such, Harbaugh would be shooting himself in the foot by not talking up Smith every chance he got.
In the video, Harbaugh said he wanted a guy that could go in and win a couple games if Flacco is injured. Now they have Bulger to not only do that, but also to mentor Flacco. Smith has one foot out the door.
I’d really like you to answer a question, though. If Harbaugh really thinks that Smith is a starting-caliber quarterback, why didn’t he play in the NE game in the playoffs last season? Flacco could barely walk, and the game plan called for him to throw the ball a whopping TEN times! If Harbaugh had any faith in Troy Smith at all, they could have given Flacco a much-needed rest and put Smith in to essentially hand the ball to Rice for an hour. Instead, Flacco was in there, risking further (potentially serious) injury. If Smith can’t be trusted to hand off the ball, then what does that say about him? What could possibly have changed during the one game between then and now to make him competent, let alone a starter?
If there’s a reasonable answer to this question, I feel like it might start to shed a little light on what it is that other people see in Troy Smith that I don’t. Otherwise, I maintain that Troy Smith is the only person that thinks Troy Smith can be a starting quarterback in the NFL.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
all i can say is john haubaugh said it clearly he thinks that troy smith
has starting quarter back quality now whats the point of lying about that if he didnt think that then he might as well just said troy smith is a good quarterback. also maybe they didnt want to use troy smith becuase they was using joe flacco as a diversion for the defense of the patriots to get them thinking he was going to throw all day or maybe they believe that he was ok. If the team didnt have faith in troy smith at all then they would had trade or got rid of him by now also as i said before in other fanpost I dont think that Marc Bulger was mainly sign to be joe flacco primary back up I think it was to help push Troy Smith and John Beck and mentor Joe flacco. The Backup Quarterbacks we have so far are young with little experience also Joe Flacco doesnt have the knowledge that Marc Bulger has as a quarterback.Marc Bulger pushes Troy Smith,Joe Flacco, and John Beck to be even better it will probably help show why coach John Harbaugh said he thinks Troy Smith has a Starter quarterback Quality
all i can say is john haubaugh said it clearly he thinks that troy smith has starting quarter back quality now whats the point of lying about that if he didnt think that…
A major part of Harbaugh’s job is spin, and he learned from the master. I keep referencing Andy Reid because of a major correlation: Reid publicly maintained that McNabb was his starting quarterback right up until Donovan was traded to the Redskins. My point is that, when it comes to coaches, actions speak much louder than words. Harbaugh can say that Troy Smith is the next coming of Marino, but that doesn’t make it so.
As to the point of lying, Harbaugh would be shooting himself (and the organization) in the foot if he publicly stated that Smith is a mediocre talent barely fit to be a backup at the NFL level while trying to get rid of him. With the usual uncertainty with several teams in the league at the quarterback position, Newsome thinks that he can get something for Smith; it’s Harbaugh’s job to make Smith look better than he actually is.
…maybe they didnt want to use troy smith becuase they was using joe flacco as a diversion for the defense of the patriots to get them thinking he was going to throw all day…
I figured there wasn’t a reasonable answer to my question. Consider me entirely unconvinced.
A diversion? Your zealotry hinges on using a very injured and mostly immobile Joe Flacco as a diversion, risking major injury, even though the game plan called for a ridiculously minimal amount of passing? You’re going to have to try harder than that.
…or maybe they believe that he was ok.
Flacco couldn’t actually sit down on the plane back from Oakland. His poor throwing motion (as a result of injuries to his hip, knee, and ankle) were probably even more evident during practice that week than during the Patriots game, which is saying a lot. I doubt there was anybody more familiar with Flacco’s injury that week than John Harbaugh.
If the team didnt have faith in troy smith at all then they would had trade or got rid of him by now.
Maybe you didn’t notice that, as a restricted free agent, Smith only drew a 5th round tender. If Smith were half as talented as Harbaugh wants you to believe, somebody would have grabbed him. As I said above, Newsome believes that he can use several teams’ uncertainties at quarterback as leverage to get a bit in return for Smith. Either that happens, or they wait out Ozzie until he’s willing to let Smith go for pennies, relatively. The fact that Smith isn’t playing somewhere else right now doesn’t preclude that from happening in the future.
Honestly, the biggest knock on Troy Smith will be if nobody else in the league has enough faith in his abilities to sign him for chicken feed. It looks like your argument is in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t situation.
…I dont think that Marc Bulger was mainly sign to be joe flacco primary back up…
Sports commentators everywhere beg to differ.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bs-sp-bulger-ravens-20100623,0,2487049.story
“The Ravens have taken out what amounts to a $3.8 million insurance policy on starting quarterback Joe Flacco by agreeing Wednesday to a contract with two-time Pro Bowl selection Marc Bulger to be his backup.”
http://blogs.baltimoreravens.com/2010/06/24/late-for-work-624-with-bulger-wholl-be-the-odd-man-out/
“Ravens officials can sleep easier with a former Pro Bowler and playoff-experienced backup, but the move immediately casts doubt on Troy Smith and John Beck’s future.”
http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/06/23/marc-bulger-set-to-sign-with-ravens/
“The addition of Bulger likely means the end of Troy Smith’s time with the Ravens.”
“Should Joe Flacco get hurt, the team doesn’t trust Troy Smith or John Beck enough to play on a team with championship aspirations.”
Et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum.
I think it was to help push Troy Smith and John Beck…
It is the nature of competition to bring out the best in us. Unfortunately, Smith has had competition for three years and his best wasn’t good enough for the Ravens.
it will probably help show why coach John Harbaugh said he thinks Troy Smith has a Starter quarterback Quality
Pure supposition. It could easily (and more logically) be said that nothing Bulger does will make Smith any better. Smith has had starting experience (end of the 2007 season), a veteran mentor (McNair), and three years to show that he’s a starter, but nobody will give up even a fifth round pick for him.
I said it above, but it’s worth repeating again. The most damning evidence against Smith’s talent will be if no other team signs him. Of course, if he does go elsewhere, it will mean that the Ravens have everything they need to win a Super Bowl without him. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
by Ampallang on Jul 11, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Harbaugh can say that Troy Smith is the next coming of Marino, but that doesn’t make it so.
You are right, Troy is actually going to win a ring.
"However, the true greatness of the Ravens’ line lies in their malevolence, led by right end Haloti Ngata. Simply put, Ngata can’t be blocked by mere mortals. He is not a product of the human species. He is really a creation of a building contractor, made of cinderblocks and some type of flesh-like covering. Throw in Kelly Gregg at nose tackle and behemoth rookie Terrence Cody and you have something truly frightening."
They are playing a Superbowl in Toronto? When?!?
"However, the true greatness of the Ravens’ line lies in their malevolence, led by right end Haloti Ngata. Simply put, Ngata can’t be blocked by mere mortals. He is not a product of the human species. He is really a creation of a building contractor, made of cinderblocks and some type of flesh-like covering. Throw in Kelly Gregg at nose tackle and behemoth rookie Terrence Cody and you have something truly frightening."
Well put. Troy Smith will win a ring when they hold the Super Bowl in Toronto. Or when pigs fly. Or whatever.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
When Troy Smith was drafted by us
Stevie Mcnair was our starting quarterback, and Kyle Boller was the main backup at the time then the next year he got a tonsil infection which stole his chance to get a shot at being the starter for us. Joe Flacco got us to the Playoff even if Troy Smith showed Starter quality the coaches minds were made up that Joe Flacco was the man;What you said so far is your opinion and the Signing could be that they don’t trust Troy Smith also that goes for the Signing of Ken Hamlin because I guess that means they dont trust Tom Zibokowski or the Signing of
…even if Troy Smith showed Starter quality…
Except for the last sentence-area of your post, this is the only idea with which I take exception. Smith never showed that he could be a reliable quarterback. Harbaugh didn’t want to play Flacco immediately, and Boller was a Billick era project that Harbaugh was happy to disown. Troy Smith was slotted to start because he was the least shitty of three supposedly poor options. As your history lesson revealed, starting Flacco ended up being a great call, and the Troy Smith era thankfully ended before it even began.
…also that goes for the Signing of Ken Hamlin because I guess that means they dont trust Tom Zibokowski…
Or it could be that — outside of Zbikowski — we have Ed Reed (who will retire whenever the coin flip comes up tails), Nakamura (who is coming off a fairly serious injury), and Gerard (who is only ever mentioned at the end of lists of secondary players). There was very little about Zbikowski’s play last season that would engender mistrust from the coaching staff. Hamlin’s signing was obviously to protect our secondary from the injury bug. If he happens to win the job over Zibi, then more power to him and to our defense. But the Hamlin and Bulger signings are completely unrelated; one was added because there was little uninjured depth, the other because there was no competent depth.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
all im saying is that it's possible that
Troy Smith could beat Marc Bulger in training camp for the Starting postions thats all im saying;honesly its just your opinion on the matter and my opinion.We both don’t know the outcome of the matter until Training camp starts up and preseason is over
all im saying is that it’s possible that Troy Smith could beat Marc Bulger in training camp…
It’s possible that Cleveland could win the AFC North, but few people are going to take that bet. Basing your argument on a long shot isn’t wise.
We both don’t know the outcome of the matter until Training camp starts up and preseason is over
This is called an appeal to ignorance; in effect, you’re saying that either outcome is equally likely because we can’t see the future. This is a fallacy. The difference between our opinions is my opinion is based upon a reasonable assumption: Bulger is a two-time Pro Bowler (and a Pro Bowl MVP) and has started in three playoff games; Troy Smith hasn’t done anything worth mentioning over the course of his professional career. Therefore, Bulger beating Smith for second string is as much a certainty as you’ll find in the NFL.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Lay off, let the guy have an opinion.
Yes, we should avoid discussion on this Ravens blog. It might give the impression that there’s no solidarity among the Ravens fan base.
I keep seeing all of this ridiculous fanaticism directed towards Troy Smith, and I just don’t get it. What is the source? Can somebody actually show me what I’m missing? I asked a question above and have made several logical points, and nothing has been answered. The pro-Smith argument has basically become “you can’t see the future, so you can’t prove us wrong.”
Is it too much to ask for somebody posting their opinion on a Ravens blog to be able to back that opinion with a minimal amount of evidence or logic? If it’s just blind faith, then say so. I can understand that.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Amp
I have had this same argument with jazz20 many times. He is going to believe what he wants to so I wouldn’t worry about trying to convince him. You made an excellent argument, although it should be common knowledge if you follow the Ravens and the NFL. Barring injury, Bulger is the backup, end of story.
If anyone wants to keep arguing this point, I would just paste this comment as it sums up the situation, while quoting high quality sources.
Rec’d
Thank you. It’s good to get some reinforcement when you feel like you’re taking crazy pills.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Amp Knows
His (football) shite.
Don’t know his background, but he has either played at a reasonably high level or is an extremely astute fan of the game.
Thank you.
…he has either played at a reasonably high level or is an extremely astute fan of the game.
I got a kick out of this. I don’t know that I’d call myself extremely astute, but even that fits better than the first option. Putting me behind center really would make Troy Smith look like Marino!
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Bulgers # 's
2009 56.7%, 1,469 yds, 5 tds, 6 ints, 70.7 rating, 9 games
2008 57.0%, 2,720 yds, 11 tds, 13 picks 71.4 rating, 15 games
2007 58.5% 2,392 yds, 11tds, 15ints, 70.3 rating, 12 games
Bulger had more INT’s than TD’s each of his last three years, hasn’t gotten a QB rating higher than 71.4, or a comp % better than 58.5%.
He has sucked the last years. I don’t care where you play, those numbers are terrible. Smith could definitely do at least as well as Bulger. Bulger is way past his good years.
by BmoreBlitz on Jul 13, 2010 8:58 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree. Bulger has not won the back up job right away. If Troy does better than him in training camp and Bulger is throwing INTs everywhere, you think we are going to keep Bulger at 2 just because of his career? Hell no, Troy has just an equal shot to win the #2.
"However, the true greatness of the Ravens’ line lies in their malevolence, led by right end Haloti Ngata. Simply put, Ngata can’t be blocked by mere mortals. He is not a product of the human species. He is really a creation of a building contractor, made of cinderblocks and some type of flesh-like covering. Throw in Kelly Gregg at nose tackle and behemoth rookie Terrence Cody and you have something truly frightening."
You know damn well
Troy does not have an equal shot to win the #2 spot. You think Bulger would have signed here if there was a 50% chance he would be the #3 or be cut? Obviously, anything is possible but the odds are far, far, far, greater that Bulger is the #2 then Smith or Beck.
Also, what is it going to take for people to realize Troy is not thought of as a starter or much of anything in this league. Ravens were basically giving him away for a 5th, and no one even kicked the tires. The freakin Bills would rather have Trent Edwards, Brohm and Fitzpatrick battle it out then take a flyer on Troy. That is very telling, especially when he could be had for a 6th or possibly a 7th at this point.
I do know this, for sure. If a team made a trade for Troy, good for him and good for that team. If he stays with the Ravens, that can only help us with him as our 3rd QB.
You think Bulger would have signed here if there was a 50% chance he would be the #3 or be cut?
No I do not. He is most likely going to win the job, but this league is full of “what if’s” so you never know.
"However, the true greatness of the Ravens’ line lies in their malevolence, led by right end Haloti Ngata. Simply put, Ngata can’t be blocked by mere mortals. He is not a product of the human species. He is really a creation of a building contractor, made of cinderblocks and some type of flesh-like covering. Throw in Kelly Gregg at nose tackle and behemoth rookie Terrence Cody and you have something truly frightening."
Smith is better than
Anything in Buffalo at QB right now. Smith has a couple things on all three Buffalo QB’s. 1. Arm-strength.
2. Mobility
The fact that Buffalo refused to trade for Jason Campbell—— a proven NFL starter tells me that Buddy Nix has the purse strings tied or they can’t evaluate talent well. Bills brass already know they can’t win with Edwards (health), Brohm (no arm) or Fitzpatrick (smart but no arm).
Levi Brown (7th rd 2010) has physical tools but he’s 2 years away if he developes at all. Not sure what the plan is in Buffalo. Behind that OL you need a mobile QB with a strong arm to drive the football down the field thru wind.
The Bills didn’t sign Bulger either when they had the chance. They wouldn’t have even had to give up a draft pick to get him. That says something too.
You just said " The freakin Bills would rather have Trent Edwards, Brohm and Fitzpatrick battle it out then take a flyer on Troy. That is very telling, especially when he could be had for a 6th or possibly a 7th at this point."
They obviouslly have nobody at QB like you said. Why not take sign a free agent in a uncapped year if he’s any good. They re-signed Trent Edwards when they knew he was terrible.
You’re totally right! It’s completely Marc Bulger’s fault that the Seahawks have lost so many games over the last three years. All those Pro Bowlers in Seattle are glad he’s gone so they can get back to winning games and going to the playoffs.
But seriously, don’t you think it’s a little dishonest to talk about the falloff in Bulgers numbers without mentioning the absolute dearth of talent around him? Last I checked, this was a team game.
Smith could definitely do at least as well as Bulger.
Pure supposition. Smith, in his limited play with the Ravens, has never had such a shitty team around him, and he still hasn’t done anything to impress anybody that matters (namely the coaching staff). At this point, the empirical evidence shows that Marc Bulger can get it done when he has some semblance of a pro football team around him, and Smith can’t.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Can you possibly continue this argument without having to be a sarcastic asshole? That is two guys you lashed out against because they stated what their opinion is, and as of right now none of us know who will be the back up QB.
"However, the true greatness of the Ravens’ line lies in their malevolence, led by right end Haloti Ngata. Simply put, Ngata can’t be blocked by mere mortals. He is not a product of the human species. He is really a creation of a building contractor, made of cinderblocks and some type of flesh-like covering. Throw in Kelly Gregg at nose tackle and behemoth rookie Terrence Cody and you have something truly frightening."
Can you possibly continue this argument without having to be a sarcastic asshole? That is two guys you lashed out against…
I absolutely take issue with this. Disagreeing with somebody is not lashing out, and all of my posts dealing with Troy Smith have been dispassionate (given how aggravating this topic is, I’ve been very careful about this). I haven’t resorted to name calling or telling people to “lay off” because I didn’t like what they were saying. That’d be rude.
If you don’t like what I have to say about Troy Smith, nobody’s forcing you to read my posts dealing with him. They shouldn’t be hard to avoid; they’re the only posts in this thread with big green cartoon next to them.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
They shouldn’t be hard to avoid; they’re the only posts in this thread with big green cartoon next to them.
I just don’t think you needed to “mock” them with comments like
You’re totally right!
It’s possible that Cleveland could win the AFC North, but few people are going to take that bet.
But yes, Marc Bulger will be the back up QB barring any catastrophic event (such as Troy Smith proving to you all that he is in fact a god).
"However, the true greatness of the Ravens’ line lies in their malevolence, led by right end Haloti Ngata. Simply put, Ngata can’t be blocked by mere mortals. He is not a product of the human species. He is really a creation of a building contractor, made of cinderblocks and some type of flesh-like covering. Throw in Kelly Gregg at nose tackle and behemoth rookie Terrence Cody and you have something truly frightening."
The “You’re totally right!” comment was directed at BmoreBlitz, who oh-so-politely told me to shut up. The comment about Cleveland winning the AFC North was hardly tongue-in-cheek; jazz20 was confusing possibility with likelihood to an Douglas Adams-ian degree. Honestly, any example I gave there would look ridiculous because the nature of that part of the discussion was inherently ridiculous.
(such as Troy Smith proving to you all that he is in fact a god).
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I hope that Troy Smith finds success wherever he ends up. It’s just not likely to happen while he’s wearing purple and black.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Amp
Keep doing what your doing. I appreciate facts based, intelligent arguments here, and you’ve stated your case well. I’d let this argument die(nothing else to really say), but know that you are not crazy, I in fact, agree with you 100% on this issue.
I’d let this argument die…
I totally understand the sentiment, but I know nothing about college football, grading draft picks, or Madden 2011. This is really the first stimulating Ravens conversation I’ve had all off-season, and it’s got me pumped about the upcoming season.
…(nothing else to really say)…
That’s for damn sure.
…know that you are not crazy…
Thanks again.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
wow all I said was just becuase Marc Bulger sign to us does not mean
he going to automatically be our back up quarterback and that troy smith or either John Beck could beat him to it. I really don’t care how many pro bowls he has and that does not mean non proven player can’t beat out a proven player it happens all the time in the nfl. The Debate we had was interesting we will just see whos right once training camp kicks off
Hold on!
There is a fine line between injecting humor and mocking. While I may have (admittedly, sometimes purposefully) crossed that line myself, many times, I do not believe in this instance Amp has crossed over into mocking territory. One of his bulging eyeballs may be over the line, but I think the replay will show he still has both feet in (humor) bounds.
And besides, everybody needs to don a little thicker skin whenever they venture into an Internet blog. And this Ravens blog is extremely tame compared to some of the political blogs out there. This stuff here on BB doesn’t even rise to kindergarten-esque “you’re a big poopy-head” and “I’m rubber and you’re glue…” relatively compared to other blogs…
And this Ravens blog is extremely tame compared to some of the political blogs out there.
So true. There’s a lot of vitriol out there.
http://majicmarc.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/yhst-34640480252896_1981_141427.gif
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
No problem with any of this conversation at all. As of right now I 100% agree with Bulger > Smith. It really is pointless to even discuss it because Ozzie brought Bulger in here knowing who the better QB is beside Joe.
Just don’t think it is fair to totally shut down someone’s opinion about Troy. Yes no one made a trade for him when we were basically giving him away, yes Bulger is the better QB, but why can’t myself and others share our thoughts that Troy has some positives about his game? And this entire conversation has just been a series of events downgrading Troy. I love the Heisman trophy winner, I love the swag, I love the dance moves…..and I love having Bulger on this team.
"However, the true greatness of the Ravens’ line lies in their malevolence, led by right end Haloti Ngata. Simply put, Ngata can’t be blocked by mere mortals. He is not a product of the human species. He is really a creation of a building contractor, made of cinderblocks and some type of flesh-like covering. Throw in Kelly Gregg at nose tackle and behemoth rookie Terrence Cody and you have something truly frightening."
Just don’t think it is fair to totally shut down someone’s opinion about Troy.
An opinion can have a rational basis. Most of the claims made about Troy Smith in this thread don’t. If it’s just blind faith, then say so. But to make these statements in such a way as to insinuate there’s some sort of reasoning behind them is an argument I’m happy to engage.
And this entire conversation has just been a series of events downgrading Troy.
I’ll take it as a compliment that you consider my posts to be events. Honestly, though, nothing has been “downgrading” Troy Smith more than his play over the last three years. I’m just the guy pointing that out.
I love the Heisman trophy winner, I love the swag, I love the dance moves
I can’t argue with any of that.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
This debate (or lack there of from my point since I know Troy sucks but won’t admit it) has been going on for so long now, it is quite funny.
How bout them O’s?
"However, the true greatness of the Ravens’ line lies in their malevolence, led by right end Haloti Ngata. Simply put, Ngata can’t be blocked by mere mortals. He is not a product of the human species. He is really a creation of a building contractor, made of cinderblocks and some type of flesh-like covering. Throw in Kelly Gregg at nose tackle and behemoth rookie Terrence Cody and you have something truly frightening."
Hey vlad, you’re a big poopy-head.
"However, the true greatness of the Ravens’ line lies in their malevolence, led by right end Haloti Ngata. Simply put, Ngata can’t be blocked by mere mortals. He is not a product of the human species. He is really a creation of a building contractor, made of cinderblocks and some type of flesh-like covering. Throw in Kelly Gregg at nose tackle and behemoth rookie Terrence Cody and you have something truly frightening."
by Mr MaLoR on Jul 13, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think Bulger will emerge as back-up
Bulger’s salary and his prior resume (prior to 07) indicates he’s the back-up. Troy or Beck would have to play out of their minds to make it a competition. If memory serves me right Bulger’s 2010 salary is guaranteed and he has incentives. Hard to ingnore the raw data on Bulger 07-09.
If memory serves me right Bulger’s 2010 salary is guaranteed and he has incentives.
He’s making $3million and some change before incentives, and a little more than $5million if he hits all of his incentives. Before incentives, that’s more than Flacco will make in any of the remaining three years on his contract. I know Flacco is lined up for a big pay day in the future, but this situation just illustrates the craziness of the lack of a salary cap for me. I seriously hope that not too much changes in the next CBA.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Troy Smith responds to the trade rumors:
“I can’t control any of that stuff,” Smith said at teammate Tom Zbikowski’s sports clinic. “I can only do what’s in my power to get better as a quarterback and fine-tune my skills and abilities.”
Looks like he’s saying all the right things in a tough situation.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Ampallang I asked you to lay off the guy because you treat everyone like they’re retarded.
“This is called an appeal to ignorance; in effect, you’re saying that either outcome is equally likely because we can’t see the future. This is a fallacy. The difference between our opinions is my opinion is based upon a reasonable assumption.”
No one wants to hear this crap. Just tell him you disagree and state your opinion.
“Consider me entirely unconvinced.”
You just sound like a dick there. Try “I’m unconvinced.” When you say shit like that, I consider you a douche.
“It could easily (and more logically) be said that nothing Bulger does will make Smith any better.”
Get off your high effing horse.
“Pure supposition. Smith, in his limited play with the Ravens, has never had such a shitty team around him, and he still hasn’t done anything to impress anybody that matters (namely the coaching staff). At this point, the empirical evidence shows that Marc Bulger can get it done when he has some semblance of a pro football team around him, and Smith can’t.”
The last years of Bulgers career says he sucks. He’s had a pro bowl RB with him that entire time and he still can’t get it done.
“But seriously, don’t you think it’s a little dishonest to talk about the falloff in Bulgers numbers without mentioning the absolute dearth of talent around him? Last I checked, this was a team game.”
What’s dishonest about stating his stats? Are you effing kidding me? Just because his stats hurt your arguement you call me dishonest.
"Bulger is a two-time Pro Bowler (and a Pro Bowl MVP) and has started in three playoff games; "
Oh look, you mentioned stuff he’s done in his career. You’re dishonest because you didn’t mention he had a great team around him then…..
“I haven’t resorted to name calling or telling people to "lay off" because I didn’t like what they were saying. That’d be rude.”
You just called me dishonest.
“The "You’re totally right!" comment was directed at BmoreBlitz, who oh-so-politely told me to shut up.”
I said lay off the guy, as in take it easiar on him. You were calling him an idiot for stating his opinion about Troy.
“An opinion can have a rational basis. Most of the claims made about Troy Smith in this thread don’t. If it’s just blind faith, then say so. But to make these statements in such a way as to insinuate there’s some sort of reasoning behind them is an argument I’m happy to engage.”
My opinion is Bulger sucks. There’s proof of that from the past three year. Maybe he can get be good for us, but right now in last three years he barely could have been worse. He had Jamarcus Russel type stats. That’s why I can say Troy Smith has the chance to win the # 2 job. Bulger with his large contract should be in line for the job, but it’s still up for grabs. Also you have to wonder since Chicago is looking hard for a veteran back-up QB, why didn’t Mike Martz get the Bears to sign his previous pro bowl QB Bulger?
Also, Bulger played for the Rams, not the Seahawks.
Also you have to wonder since Chicago is looking hard for a veteran back-up QB, why didn’t Mike Martz get the Bears to sign his previous pro bowl QB Bulger?
Maybe they did offer Bulger, he might have decided he wanted to take a shot at a ring, which Chicago does not offer.
…you treat everyone like they’re retarded.
That’s entirely untrue. I’ve answered every one of jazz20’s posts with a reasoned rebuttal, which is inherently a sign of respect. Had I dismissed his arguments or resorted to name calling, that would have been disrespectful.
No one wants to hear this crap. Just tell him you disagree and state your opinion.
The majority of his argument was based on a logical fallacy. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with pointing that out. Also, it isn’t wise to assume that you speak for everyone else.
You just sound like a dick there. Try "I’m unconvinced." When you say shit like that, I consider you a douche.
I know you don’t like the way I write; you’ve made that perfectly clear to me. What I don’t know is why you keep reading my posts if they get you so worked up. I told Mr MaLoR above that it isn’t hard to skip my posts; they’re the only ones with a big green cartoon at the top.
I refuse to type like I’m barely literate. You’re really barking up the wrong tree.
Get off your high effing horse.
You’ve quoted me out of context. In my post, I pointed out all of the advantages that Smith has had over the past three years that haven’t helped to elevate his game. Also, the high horse reference doesn’t really fit in this specific instance.
The last years of Bulgers career says he sucks. He’s had a pro bowl RB with him that entire time and he still can’t get it done.
You still haven’t mentioned the other holes on the team, namely the offensive line. Not having Peyton Manning’s quick release is hardly a damning condemnation, and it’s hard to put up Pro Bowl numbers when you’re running for you life every pass play.
What’s dishonest about stating his stats? Are you effing kidding me? Just because his stats hurt your arguement you call me dishonest.
If you’re going to quote me, you might as well talk about what was quoted. There’s nothing at all dishonest about his stats; I’m personally big on stats in most cases. What is dishonest is posting those stats like they’re the end of the story. Football is a team game, and it’s hard to argue that those poor stats weren’t a team effort. It’s like pointing to Flacco’s passer rating in the NE playoff game; it’s bad, but he was seriously injured (as it relates to his passing ability) and the game plan called for very little passing.
Oh look, you mentioned stuff he’s done in his career. You’re dishonest because you didn’t mention he had a great team around him then…..
Again, you’re quoting me out of context. I listed Bulger’s accomplishments in comparison to Smith’s as a reason to logically believe that Bulger has a lock on backup QB. Also, you don’t get a Pro Bowl MVP just by having talent around you.
You just called me dishonest.
You may have missed where Mr MaLoR called me an asshole. I defended my actions, and now we’re BFF’s again. Posting Bulger’s stats over the last three years without some kind of statement about the other players on the offense is dishonest.
I said lay off the guy, as in take it easiar on him. You were calling him an idiot for stating his opinion about Troy.
I never called him an idiot. Only two people in this thread have resorted to name calling. As I said above, answering his statements with logical rebuttals is implicitly respectful.
My opinion is Bulger sucks. There’s proof of that from the past three year.
Very true. However, I think that there’s more evidence over the past three years that Smith is a lesser option for us for all the reasons I’ve stated previously.
That’s why I can say Troy Smith has the chance to win the # 2 job.
But if I disagree, I should just lay off?
Also you have to wonder since Chicago is looking hard for a veteran back-up QB, why didn’t Mike Martz get the Bears to sign his previous pro bowl QB Bulger?
I’m just speculating here, but could this be a reason that Bulger hasn’t actually signed his contract yet?
Also, Bulger played for the Rams, not the Seahawks.
My mistake. I have no idea why I was thinking about the Seahawks.
Also, I’m getting pretty tired of your name calling and attempted character assassination. If you don’t like what I write, or how I write, or why I write, then don’t read it; I’ve made it as easy as I can for you to skip my posts. If you don’t want to deal with dissenting opinions, avoid the Internet and don’t go outside. I’ve already had two people who have been around longer than you tell me to keep doing what I do; what the fuck do I care if I’ve hurt your delicate sensibilities?
Grow up.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
’I’m getting pretty tired of your name calling and attempted character assassination." … "what the fuck do I care if I’ve hurt your delicate sensibilities?
Ehhhh…. attempted character assasination……really?!? and you say I have delicate sensibilities, ok drama queen.
You’ve quoted me out of context. In my post, I pointed out all of the advantages that Smith has had over the past three years that haven’t helped to elevate his game. Also, the high horse reference doesn’t really fit in this specific instance.
All you do is quote people. Lots of it could be considered (by you) out of context. Like in a thread in little while ago you quoted me as saying Balls, Balls, Balls. I did no such thing.
I’ve already had two people who have been around longer than you tell me to keep doing what I do
Two people kissing your ass in an internet blog means something to you? Maybe you’re the one who should get more.
"It could easily (and more logically) be said that nothing Bulger does will make Smith any better."
When you add in the more logically comment, it does sound like your on a high effing horse.
Also, you don’t get a Pro Bowl MVP just by having talent around you.
HAHA! Read what you just said. It’s the pro bowl, of course there’s talent around you. Also nobody tries in the Pro bowl, those awards mean nothing.
“Posting Bulger’s stats over the last three years without some kind of statement about the other players on the offense is dishonest.”
First, how is posting stats ever dishonest? They’re effing stats. They are exact representations of that player and how they performed. Second, I did say this in the same comment window. “I don’t care where you play, those numbers are terrible.”
Also if you want to act like a second grader and worry about who called who what, you started it with calling me Dishonest before Malor replied asking if you could respond without being a sarcastic asshole. BAM! How you like dem apples?!?!?!
Ehhhh…. attempted character assasination……really?!? and you say I have delicate sensibilities, ok drama queen.
You very rarely dispute my points. More often, you’re attacking me personally; case in point, the post to which I’m responding. If I’m proven wrong — like saying that Bulger played for the Seahawks — I’ll fess up. If I’m being attacked, does pointing that out really make me a drama queen?
All you do is quote people.
You have the weirdest complaints.
Lots of it could be considered (by you) out of context. Like in a thread in little while ago you quoted me as saying Balls, Balls, Balls. I did no such thing.
http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2010/6/7/1506595/create-a-caption-8
“…balls…”
BmoreBlitz
“…balls…”
BmoreBlitz
“…balls…”
BmoreBlitz
Accurate quoting is important in that it prevents people from claiming they didn’t say things they actually did. I suppose my outlandishly rampant quoting is a valid concern if that’s your goal, though.
Two people kissing your ass in an internet blog means something to you?
I’ll leave it to other people to defend themselves, but that’s a rude comment. Personally, I’d appreciate it if you’d leave them out of this if all you’re going to do is denigrate them.
When you add in the more logically [sic] comment, it does sound like your [sic] on a high effing horse.
But my comment is more logical, and for the reasons given. If my comment isn’t more logical, then feel free to show that I’m wrong and make me look like a fool.
Also nobody tries in the Pro bowl…
That sounds like an even playing field to me. I’ll agree that a Pro Bowl MVP probably isn’t the most prestigious of awards, but it’s a testament of some measure of Bulger’s ability that Troy Smith doesn’t have.
First, how is posting stats ever dishonest? They’re effing stats.
I feel like you aren’t understanding what I’m trying to say. Bulger’s stats over the past three years were bad, but you can’t seriously attribute that solely to him. He had awful pass protection and an offensive scheme that emphasized getting the receivers open over protecting the quarterback. Last season, he dealt with a broken leg, a strained groin, a hamstring, and concussion symptoms before ending the year on injured reserve. His offensive line and offensive coordinator should be embarrassed, at the least, and God help Bradford.
I still maintain that pointing to his recent stats without a caveat about the rest of the offense is dishonest. Tell me how I’m wrong or drop the subject.
They are exact representations of that player and how they performed.
Quarterbacks don’t snap the ball, block, or throw to themselves. If any stats are not representative of one single player’s performance, it’s a quarterback’s stats. There are a rare few quarterbacks that can really put an entire offense on their back and carry the team, but that’s a bit of a moot point when we’re discussing a backup.
Second, I did say this in the same comment window. "I don’t care where you play, those numbers are terrible."
I’m not sure what your point is. Most teams would probably try to avoid a quarterback putting up stats like that; unfortunately, the Rams didn’t do much to help out Bulger in that regard. You’re clinging to Bulger’s stats as some type of proof that he’s washed up, but you have yet to address the Rams’ offensive line and offensive scheme, or Bulger’s resultant injuries.
…you started it with calling me Dishonest…
I still would argue (like what I did there?) that you’re making a demonstrably dishonest argument. You’ve yet to address the issues I listed above.
BAM! How you like dem apples?!?!?!
This would have been a lot more effective as a closer if the rest of your post had some merit. Matt Damon got the girl’s number; you told me I quote a lot.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
I don’t dislike you (excuse the double negative), I dislike the personal attacks. How about you actually answer my arguments instead of waxing sophomoric about how bad a person I am for disagreeing with you?
Why is it not dishonest to post Bulger’s stats without context? What logical reason is there for saying that Troy Smith has any kind of legitimate chance to retain the second string position? How can you be done when all you’ve really accomplished is posting some stats? Is your argument so untenable?
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Why is it not dishonest to post Bulger’s stats without context?
Do you expect me to write a Ball Hawk length explaination on the Rams offensive schemes / issues when I post stats? I didn’t post a small sample either. It was the most recent three years (the avg career of NFL players). There’s a reason why QB’s get the win loss record attached to their name, they’re the most influential person on their team. Scroll up and look at the stats again. Do you honestly believe Troy Smith could not have put up equal stats to Bulger’s if he had played for the Rams during the last three years? I think Smith would have put better stats. That’s why I can say he has a legit shot to win the back up role (If they’re are no biases because of money, and he’s still on the team.).
Do you expect me to write a Ball Hawk length explaination on the Rams offensive schemes / issues when I post stats?
Are we reading the same thread? I used words like “mention” and “caveat.” I never asked for a dissertation on the Rams’ offense; I asked for context.
I didn’t post a small sample either. It was the most recent three years (the avg career of NFL players).
I never disputed the sample size of the stats you chose to post for Bulger. I pointed out that the available stats for Troy Smith were a small sample size earlier in the discussion, though.
You’re arguing against points I never made.
There’s a reason why QB’s get the win loss record attached to their name, they’re the most influential person on their team. Scroll up and look at the stats again.
I looked at the stats again, but didn’t see anything about wins and losses. I went to NFL.com and reviewed his stats there, and again didn’t see anything about wins and losses. Where’s the evidence that the win-loss record is pinned on the quarterback? Last I checked, the sports media also jumps on other positions when analyzing losses. Here are a couple of examples from recent Rams losses:
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009091311/2009/REG1/rams@seahawks#tab:analyze
“The Seahawks’ passing game exploited the middle of the [Rams] defense by frequently targeting John Carlson on a variety of seam routes.”
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009092707/2009/REG3/packers@rams#tab:analyze
“…the [Green Bay] offense moved the ball effectively with Rodgers acting as a distributor against a defense that repeatedly brought five- and six-man pressures off the edges.”
Saying the quarterback is the sole proprietor of the win-loss record doesn’t make it so, especially in such a team-oriented sport like football.
Do you honestly believe Troy Smith could not have put up equal stats to Bulger’s if he had played for the Rams during the last three years? I think Smith would have put better stats.
You’re going to love my answer to this one.
You’ve committed a logical fallacy known as an irrelevant appeal, in which you present a convincing argument based on premises that have nothing to do with the argument at hand.
The question isn’t how Troy Smith would have done in St. Louis over the past three years; speculating — and that’s all this is — about this reveals nothing. The question is how Marc Bulger will play in Baltimore, where they have solid pass protection (at least compared to the Rams) and a scheme that protects the quarterback. Compare that to Troy Smith’s body of work with such advantages and you’ll find that there’s no good reason to think Smith will remain the number two QB in Baltimore. It is much more reasonable to assume that Bulger, capable of putting up Pro Bowl numbers, will perform much better in Baltimore than his recent stats would indicate (especially since you’ve yet to recognize the context missing from those stats).
That’s why I can say he has a legit shot to win the back up role…
It’s a free country, but having an opinion doesn’t mean it’s a good one. Right now, it looks like your whole argument is resting on a logical fallacy and the belief that the Rams’ record over the past three years somehow makes Troy Smith a competent quarterback.
If they’re are no biases because of money…
You say “bias,” I say “evidence.” $3+ million is a lot of money to pay somebody not to suit up, even in an uncapped year. Football is a business, after all, and Bisciotti is trying to turn a profit. This isn’t my “BAM! How you like dem apples?!?!?!” coup de grâce; it’s just a bit more evidence in favor of Bulger having the backup role locked up.
…and [if] he’s still on the team.
If he’s still here next season, it’s because 31 teams in the NFL don’t think he’s worth the chicken feed it would take to acquire him. If he’s traded, it’s because the only team in the NFL that matters had everything they needed to make a run at the Super Bowl without him. I explained my reasoning for these statements in more detail above, and I’d still like to see somebody show me where I’m wrong.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Here’s a little more fuel for the fire:
Marc Bulger on being the backup: “…it was made clear to me up front that would be my role there.”
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
A look at all the Ravens QB's (who have at least played in a game):
Good:
Vinny Testaverde (1996-97)
Joe Flacco (2008-Present)
OK:
Steve McNair (2006-07)
Trent Dilfer (2000)
Elvis Grbac (2001)
Bad:
Eric Zeier (1996-98)
Jim Harbaugh (1998)
Wally Richardson (1997-98)
Tony Banks (1999-2000)
Stoney Case (1999)
Scott Mitchell (1999)
Chris Redman (2000-03)
Randall Cunningham (2001)
Jeff Blake (2002)
Kyle Boller (2003-07)
Anthony Wright (2003-05)
Kordell Stewart (2004-05)
Undecided: Troy Smith (2007)
Looking at the previous QB’s Ozzie has signed, Bulger is likely another player in the long list of us signing washed up or bad QB’s. There’s your previous data needed to know how he would llikely perform if he got some playing time. I’ll just add the BAM! here.
You’ve committed a logical fallacy known as an irrelevant appeal, in which you present a convincing argument based on premises that have nothing to do with the argument at hand.
The last three years of a player’s career have a lot to do with this arguement. They show he played poorly when given the opportunity.
The last three years of a player’s career have a lot to do with this arguement. They show he played poorly when given the opportunity.
These two sentences really have nothing to do with what you’ve quoted. Either tell me what speculation about how Smith would play in St. Louis has to do with how Bulger will likely play in Baltimore or move on to your next fallacious argument (as that’s all you’ve used so far, I’m assuming that’s all I should expect in the future).
Also, it’s a bit of a stretch to call what Bulger had in St. Louis an “opportunity.” I think it’s safe to assume that very few quarterbacks could have found much success there, being that they’d have to learn to throw from their backs.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Alright Johnny Cockeran, all you’ve got is a fallacious arguement. Explain to me why Bulger is good since no one would sign him as a starter. Every other team knows his skills have diminished, so what says he’s better than Troy Smith now? Where is the current proof? Fallash me that.
Alright Johnny Cockeran, all you’ve got is a fallacious arguement.
On the contrary, I believe I’ve explained pretty thoroughly that it’s you that is the sole proprietor of the fallacious arguments here.
Explain to me why Bulger is good since no one would sign him as a starter.
This is yet another logical fallacy, known colloquially as moving the goal posts. Nobody here is arguing that Bulger should be a starter. Personally, I haven’t even used Bulger’s starter experience as an argument against Smith; I did, however, use Smith’s starting experience as evidence against him (somewhere above).
Every other team knows his skills have diminished, so what says he’s better than Troy Smith now?
Yes, Bulger’s recent stats are the lynchpin of your argument. You’ve brought up the point several times, but you have yet to address mine. Isn’t it probable that very poor pass blocking by the offensive line contributed to Bulger’s low stats? Isn’t it also probable that an offensive scheme that all but ignored protecting the quarterback also helped with his statistical decline? And — arising from the first two points — isn’t it probable that a series of injuries (listed elsewhere in this thread) could explain Bulger’s poor play?
Feel free to address these issues before bringing up Bulger’s stats again.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Personally, I haven’t even used Bulger’s starter experience as an argument against Smith;
Here is a quote from another post: "It is much more reasonable to assume that Bulger, capable of putting up Pro Bowl numbers, will perform much better in Baltimore than his recent stats would indicate "
You assume since he put up decent numbers four years that he can do it again? That’s totally unsound thinking. Ray Lewis used to be able to run a 4.5. Since he did then, he can do it now right?
Your arguement is even more unsound than mine. I’ve shown recent data, you’ve got really old data. Current data is more accurate, wouldn’t you say?
Fallashed!
You assume since he put up decent numbers four years that he can do it again?
I assume that since Bulger put up good numbers when he had some talent around him that he’ll be able to do so again in Baltimore, where there is a plethora of talent on the offense.
Ray Lewis used to be able to run a 4.5. Since he did then, he can do it now right?
Ray Lewis’s ability to run a 4.5sec 40-yard dash is in no way impacted by whether he’s getting help from his teammates. Bulger doesn’t need to run a 4.5sec 40-yard dash to do his job; he needs a competent offensive line and receivers. This is a pretty poor comparison.
I’ve shown recent data, you’ve got really old data.
I’m telling you that your recent data is misleading, while the circumstances surrounding the older data is more akin to the situation Bulger will be in with the Ravens.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Looking at the previous QB’s Ozzie has signed, Bulger is likely another player in the long list of us signing washed up or bad QB’s.
I think this is a very unfair statement to make. Besides Joe and Vinny, Bulger is by far the 3rd best QB on that list. He has accomplished playoff berths, pro bowls and some damn good stats while doing so. All the guys you post above besides Joe, Vinny and maybe McNair have been shit for us.
I will tell you something that I live by as a fan of the NFL, take notice. If you use the past as a way of explaining the now in the NFL, you will always fail.
Bulger is going to be the back-up (And this is coming from a Troy Smith obsessor) and is still a damn good QB. The Rams have been the leagues worst team over the last 3 years because the players outside of Bulger, Jackson and Atogwe were total crap.
Trust me when I say this, the QB controversy is over for the Ravens, so there really is no reason to bring up a dumb list like this.
At what point does a QB have to take responsibility for his team failing? After three years of putting up terrible numbers, those losses have to be put somewhat on Bulger’s shoulders.
Jackson put up decent stats with St. Louis’s O-line. 2009
1,416 yds, 4.4 avg, 4 TD’s, 51 rec 322 yds.
Besides Joe and Vinny, Bulger is by far the 3rd best QB on that list. He has accomplished playoff berths, pro bowls and some damn good stats while doing so.
Not since 2006 has he had decent numbers. Like you said, “If you use the past as a way of explaining the now in the NFL, you will always fail.” He was a good QB, but the recent stats say he isn’t the player he used to be.
I’m with you on the back-up Qb is all but sealed for Bulger. The money invested dicates that. Hopefully the coaches with let the best man in training camp win the job though.
Hopefully the coaches with let the best man in training camp win the job though.
And I think they will. Like I tried to explain earlier before Ampallang abused me with big words, Troy still has every shot to be the back up (if we do not trade him). Bulger has proven nothing to us so far that he can be the RAVENS back up QB and Troy has proven very little.
This is what training camp and the 4 preseason games that I love is for. If Troy goes out there in each game, completes 60% of his passes, gets 175-200 yards and some TD’s while Bulger goes out there and completes 50% of his passes, gets 100-150 yards and is turning the ball over, TROY WILL WIN THE BATTLE.
As of right now, Bulger has the spot. He is the more experienced, has won many games in this league and as of right now probably is nothing more than a back-up QB, but a damn good one. Should make for an interesting battle this year.
At what point does a QB have to take responsibility for his team failing?
At what point should the team take responsibility for giving the quarterback so little to work with? Like I said before, the quarterback doesn’t snap the ball, block rushers, or throw to himself. If there’s nobody to help him out, then there’s only so much blame you can put on the quarterback.
Jackson put up decent stats with St. Louis’s O-line. 2009
1,416 yds, 4.4 avg, 4 TD’s, 51 rec 322 yds.
Run blocking and pass blocking are two entirely different skill sets (Oniel Cousins is a great example of being proficient at one and terrible at the other). I’m very surprised you even tried to take the argument in this direction.
Not since 2006 has he had decent numbers.
You keep going back to the stats, but you have yet to tell me why I shouldn’t be putting them into the context of how poor his offensive line and offensive scheme were. Either you explain this to me, or I will continue to maintain that your use of these stats is dishonest (see my second sentence in this post, as well as multiple other sentences throughout this entire argument, for why).
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Ok how many yards, TDs, wins, and rating points should I adjust to Bulgers stat? What would be acceptable?
Ok how many yards, TDs, wins, and rating points should I adjust to Bulgers stat?
That question doesn’t make any sense, and I’m not going to assume to know what you’re trying to get at.
What would be acceptable?
What would be acceptable would be for you to stop dancing around the point and answer me. I’d like to know how Bulger’s stats over the past three years are exact representations of his play, even though there were so many other contributing factors all around him.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Ok how many yards, TDs, wins, and rating points should I adjust to Bulgers stat?
Of course the question doesn’t make sense, it’s sarcasm. It would be a total projection how Bulger would do if he had a better scheme, line, or brain. All we have to go on is his stats. We know what those are.
Of course the question doesn’t make sense, it’s sarcasm.
The question doesn’t make sense because “adjust” apparently doesn’t mean what you think it means.
It would be a total projection how Bulger would do if he had a better scheme, line, or brain.
Or you could look at his stats prior to 2006 for that exact situation (better brain not withstanding).
All we have to go on is his stats. We know what those are.
Is this your only reasoning for completely ignoring the dearth of talent around Bulger for the past couple of years? It’s a good thing you didn’t end this post with a “Bam!”
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
“The question doesn’t make sense because "adjust" apparently doesn’t mean what you think it means.”
“Ok how many yards, TDs, wins, and rating points should I adjust to Bulger’s stat[s]? What would be acceptable?”
adjust: To change so as to match or fit.
You wanted me to acknowledge his teammate’s difficiencies, so I was asking how much you wanted me to change his stats to make you happy.
Is that inconcievable?!?!
Looking at the previous QB’s Ozzie has signed, Bulger is likely another player in the long list of us signing washed up or bad QB’s. There’s your previous data needed to know how he would llikely perform if he got some playing time.
I have to agree with Mr MaLoR here. This list doesn’t prove anything. In fact, the whole argument is a non sequitur (yet another logical fallacy): because other quarterbacks have been mediocre in Baltimore, so must be Marc Bulger? Where’s the evidence? What the stats show me is that when Bulger had some talent around him on offense, he put up great numbers; when he had no help, he put up poor numbers. That sounds like a recipe for success with all the talent on the Ravens offense.
I’ll just add the BAM! here.
You keep on BAM!ing away. I’m sure you’ll eventually put one at the end of a post that isn’t full of context-less stats and fallacious arguments.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
Where’s your proof that he didn’t have decent talent the last three years. That’s unsound reasoning right there. Maybe he was the problem….
Basically all three of us are looking into a Magic 8 ball and guessing who’s better now anyway. This debate isn’t going anywhere.
I for One
Enjoy and appreciate Amp’s erudite posts. He may not by right about everything, but he seems to knock it out of the park most times.
And no, he does not treat everybody like they are retarded. Like I said in an earlier post, 1) Turn power on PC; 2) Log onto Internet blog; 3) Don thick skin; 4) Rinse, repeat as necessary
Ampallang said: "You’re totally right! It’s completely Marc Bulger’s fault that the Seahawks have lost so many games over the last three years. All those Pro Bowlers in Seattle are glad he’s gone so they can get back to winning games and going to the playoffs.
But seriously, don’t you think it’s a little dishonest to talk about the falloff in Bulgers numbers without mentioning the absolute dearth of talent around him? Last I checked, this was a team game.
There’s nothing profound about Ampallang. He whines and complains when he’s proven wrong, and then goes on the attack with you’re dishonest for showing his most recent stats.
Your entitled to you opinion on Amp
But like he said, if you don’t like what he contributes, skip over his posts, they are quite easy to find. Myself and others,(I’m going out on a limb and speaking for Malor and Bruce as well as I’ve known them personally for a long time) who have been on this blog since the beginning, enjoy and appreciate what Amp contributes. Personally, he is one of my favorite posters, as he uses facts and proper use of the English language to make his points. I can also appreciate how it could rub you the wrong way, but get over it, and skip over his comments if thats the case. He does not break any rules and does not resort to name calling unless provoked(and still normally doesn’t). He is not going anywhere and he is not going to change the way he comments, nor would we want him too.
That said, I as well as others, appreciate what you contribute as well BmoreBlitz. If you and Amp don’t play well together, there is still plenty of room on this blog for the both of you.
by DT711 on Jul 14, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I Might Be Missing Smething
But I do not recall Amp being a “whiner”. Maybe a rare incident or two, but none come to mind. Amp may be many things, but a complainer, IMHO, is not one of them.
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