The Argument for T.O. over Mason
by Rayisyourdaddy on Mar 6, 2010 10:03 PM EST
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PrintThis is not going to make me the least bit popular here, but I have to float this idea. We all know that we just acquired Anquan Boldin from the Cardinals. It is a large upgrade for us, even with Boldin's injury history and age, and the extension is well worth it for a player of his caliber. One concern raised by many Baltimore fans, although they are all happy with the trade, is Boldin's similarities to Mason (albeit he is younger). Body-wise and and style-wise, Boldin and Mase are similar. The concern is, if we let Mase go, our WR corp is not really upgraded short-term over our WR corp last year. It is basically substituting Mason with Boldin and Washington with Stallworth, neither of which are such great short-term upgrades. And if you consider the money difference between Boldin and Mason, the short-term gain is not so large.
On the other hand, if we bring back Mason, the similar styles of the WR's and the possibility of Mase whining about not getting enough balls thrown his way (ala 2007) are concerns for this team. He also will not be so happy with the Ravens saying he is not much of a priority and letting him float in the wind for a while. So bringing him back might not be a great idea either. That would give us 4 short WR under 6"2, not exactly ideal. (5 if you include Marcus Smith) This would leave us in need of a big, young TE who can catch, so that Flacco could have a big target.
I would like to propose an alternate theory. We have leverage on FA WR's in that we made our big moves and now have a solid, if unspectacular WR corp. That is where T.O. comes in. He is a totally different type of WR than Mason. Where Mason is a 5"11, consistent possession receiver, T.O. is a big 6"3, studly, brash big-play WR. If we hadn't made the trade for Boldin, bringing in T.O. would have been a big risk, banking on a wild-card. Now that we have Boldin in the fold, we would not have to fully rely on T.O. to be our clutch guy. If he makes trouble, we let him go mid-season, not a biggie. So the experiment failed; we still have Anquan. I think he would be fine here with our strong veteran leadership. Give the guy a chance to win the championship that has evaded him his whole career. He played on a bum leg in the SB with Philly and had a great game. He would be an amazing complement to Boldin and Stallworth. We have a 2 year window to win a Super Bowl with Birk, Ray and Reed (if he sticks around, which I think he will for another year or 2) in the fold. After that, this team is going to go through some changes. But until then we have a serious chance to win some bling. Roll the dice Ozzie, give T.O. a 2 year deal.
T.O., even this old version, is still an above average WR. Who do you double team with him and Boldin? Yes, Mason knows the offense and shouldn't be an attitude problem, but he could be in his new role as I stated above. I say give T.O. a chance.
Ravens 2010 WR corp: Boldin, Owens, Stallworth, Clayton, and Marcus Smith.
The opinions posted here are those of the administrator of this blog and his loyal readers. They are in no way official comments from the team, and should not be misconstued as such, even though he thinks he could do just as well or even a better job!
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I'll take Mason
He knows the system better and can still put up 75+ catches for sure. Not sure if Owens would be good for anything more than 60+, and the drops concern me. We all know that Mason has some of the best hands in the league. Our WR fit our clock controlling offense perfectly right now.
Mason > Owens.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
Malor
True, but Boldin and Mason are redundant! Not to mention clayton is the same type of player and no one is signing him with 2nd round compensation. I am hoping someone offers us a 3rd or a 4th for him in a trade and we unload him.
Back to Mason vs. Owens, Owens is 6"3 and strong. We don’t need 75 catches from our #2, we need something Boldin doesn’t give us; height and skill pulling the ball down in traffic. Mase would be great if we needed a possession reciever. But we filled that need with the younger Boldin. We need a different type of WR to fill that role; something we would have gotten if we had gotten Marshall or V. Jackson. Unfortunately their price tags were way too high for Ozzie’s taste. Plus, there is no guarantee Mase won’t bit*h about his touches as a #2 WR and be just as much as a malcontent as Owens could be. The upside is bigger with Owens. And I think he would be happy just to be playing for a contender, as it seems like teams are not falling all over each other to sign him.
The other thing I forget to mention, is that signing T.O. would lessen the wear and tear on Boldin early, giving him a viable threat on the other side, even with T.O. being slower than in his prime.
I understand
Hey man, I would love to have Owens here. I have been one of the few who has always lobbied for him here. Would only improve us, but right now if we were to basically give up Mason for Owens, it just does not make sense when thinking like Ozzie. Continuity is critical to success in this league.
Yea, Owens is big and no doubt one of the best athletes to ever play at the WR position. Would only improve this team, but I will take the toughness and heart of Mason and Boldin together over Boldin and Owens. We just don’t need to make a crazy change like that right now. I think bringing Mason back is a very smart move.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
The other thing I forget to mention, is that signing T.O. would lessen the wear and tear on Boldin early, giving him a viable threat on the other side, even with T.O. being slower than in his prime.
I still think Mason is just as if not a bigger threat than Owens is right now. We know Mason can’t be covered 1 on 1 and catches everything. A respectable no thanks on this.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
What? Boldin and Mason are redundant? Do you mean similar or are you saying that having both is redundant? Either way, it doesn’t make any sense. True, they are both “possession” receivers, but that’s about as far as the similarities go.
First, Boldin is still one of the elite receivers in the NFL. Ask any NFL guy. He’s a matchup nightmare for defenses. Corners have a hard to covering him because he’s so physical… He will tear the ball away from them and then break their tackle. Linebackers simply cannot cover him. He’s too fast. What makes Boldin a good possession receiver is his strength and athleticism.
Mason is one of the elite route runners in the NFL, but he doesn’t have the speed to be a number one receiver any longer. In his prime, it was his speed, quickness and route running that man him dominate, but he was never a physical freak like Boldin. He was always a great receiver but could never take over a game like a Boldin or Marshall. Today’s Mason is still a good receiver because he has mastered the craft of route running. Furthermore, he is still extremely quick on his feet (I’ve never seen a receiver break a corner’s ankles better than Mason). What makes Mason a good possession receiver is his route running and quickness.
The point is that the Ravens just traded for a dominate number one wide receiver. Mason may be a possession guy like Boldin but he is not capable of dominating defenses, taking over games and willing contested catches like Boldin. Boldin is actually more similar to TO than Mason. In my opinion, signing TO would be “redundant.”
I actually think that getting Mason back will be a key signing. After the Ravens traded for Boldin, I was actually hoping that they wouldn’t sign Walter… only because I knew if they signed Walter, Mason was gone. I really think that Mason will be much better for our team in the short term, and guys like Walter, although I’m still a big fan, are replaceable. What isn’t replaceable is Mason’s leadership and knowledge of the offense. We can’t forget the production either. He may not be as dominate as Boldin but the guy can play ball. He would be LETHAL in the slot.
by BAL_Hawk on Mar 7, 2010 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yup
I don’t really know why everyone is saying Boldin and Mason are redundant but T.O would not be? You explain this well as Mason does not have and never had Boldin’s physical dominance and tackle breaking ability.
Take out TO’s big game last year and he had barely 600 yards in the remainder of his games. He is still a locker room cancer, its all about him, and bottom line, hes not an elite player anymore. Regardless, there is too much negative history between Ozzie and T.O. for this to ever happen. We might have taken the chance years ago when he was a premier player but no way we bring him in now, especially with Boldin here. No chance T.O. is a Raven, but we can look forward to new fan posts daily on this subject.
by DT711 on Mar 7, 2010 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
+1
Great comments Bal_Hawk and DT711. I’m completely on board with this thinking process.
Gotta admit
he is correct about all those points. The big comparison about Mason and Boldin is that they both are sure handed possession type, although Boldin has that game breaking ability that Mason usually doesn’t.
aka 'Rexx'
When I say redundant...
I meant that Mason’s skills are redundant on this team, because Boldin possesses them and more. Boldin is a good route runner and possession receiver, plus he is great in open space. His quickness is equal to or superior to Mason’s. So I am stating that Mason’s skill set is too similar to some of the skills Boldin possesses to be as much of an asset to this team.
And calling Boldin and TO similar is just plain ignorant. Boldin is a shifty, sure-handed possession receiver who is great once he has the ball, T.O. is a big play receiver. Go watch clips of them on youtube.
And MAson’s leadership is overrated. He is just as likely to whine as he is to be a good camper. And his upside is less than Mason.
by Rayisyourdaddy on Mar 7, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
The thing about T.O's highlights
Is they are all in the past.
Is he still really a consistent big play WR?
I say no, and I think many other teams do as well, as you can see the lack of demand for his services. Even with all his baggage, teams would be knocking down the door to sign the 29 y/o version of TO. The aging version of T.O.? Not so much.
And calling Boldin and TO similar is just plain ignorant. Boldin is a shifty, sure-handed possession receiver who is great once he has the ball, T.O. is a big play receiver. Go watch clips of them on youtube.
Watch clips of them on YouTube? I don’t need to do that. I’ve been watching the NFL my entire life and have followed both receivers for their entire careers. I’m an avid football fan and read about the game as much as I follow the players. I don’t need to watch highlight clips on YouTube. I’ve read and watched enough where I believe that I’m not “ignorant” about the subject.
TO may have been a better deep threat earlier in his career, but I wasn’t saying that they are identical. I was simply saying that Boldin is “more similar” to TO than Mason and I stand by it. TO and Boldin are both physical freaks and used their physicality and athleticism to get open, catch the ball, break tackles and eventually score. Furthermore, Boldin’s speed and ability to be the “big play receiver” is highly underrated. True, he doesn’t outrun the coverages like TO did but is still MUCH better than TO at this point in their respective careers. However, Boldin does make his share of big plays. You should check YouTube… I’m sure there are plenty of highlights.
And MAson’s leadership is overrated. He is just as likely to whine as he is to be a good camper. And his upside is less than Mason.
I have NEVER heard Mason whine. He has been a model of professionalism during his entire time in Baltimore. He could have whined while he was suffering through Boller. Instead, he led the team in receiving and eventually helped develop our new franchise quarterback. It’s a shame that Ravens fans so quickly forget what Mason has done for the team over the last five seasons.
Finally, I don’t know how you can talk about upside on 36 year old receivers. The Ravens can only really count on one year from either receiver, and that’s another huge reason to go with Mason. Mason already knows the offense and can be productive immediately. TO might take several games before he can produce in a new offense.
by BAL_Hawk on Mar 7, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Me too
I have been watching them most of their career’s. T.O. brings us a better end zone option than Mason and Boldin to go to for TD’s, with post ups and the like. Don’t get me wrong, I love Boldin and what he brings to the table, and the price was right. He is a great player in the middle of the field with the ball, and a great possession receiver. But I don’t think he is a good option in the end zone, ala V. Jax, Marshall, Fitz, Andre J, Moss, etc. That is why I think we should bring in T.O.
Mason did whine, in 2007, that he wasn’t touching the ball enough. Again, don’t get me wrong, he has been a good soldier most of his career, and I appreciate that as a Ravens fan, I just worry because in the past few years he complained, then retired when he didn’t get his extension. So sliding him into the #2 will not necessarily be as smooth as assumed. Obv Ozzie won’t bring him back if he thinks its a problem.
And when I say upside with T.O., I mean his best case scenario is very high. He will be motivated and hoping to be a contributor on a Super Bowl contender. I envision 60 catches, 800 yds and 8-10 tds for him as our #2. If he is not working out, or he is acting out, cut him. Low risk, high upside. No long term investment involved. We have a 2 year superbowl window with Ray. Lets maximize the opportunity.
by Rayisyourdaddy on Mar 7, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think you realize the decline in T.O's game
that has occurred with more to surely come as he turns 36. I just don’t think he is a better end zone target then Boldin at this stage in his career. Not really that close IMO. Boldin might not be a deep threat but he is much more of a play maker then T.O. at this point in their respective careers.
Regardless, we are not signing T.O. so it doesn’t really matter other then for the sake of debate. I just see no way it happens.
At 36, I think TO has more left
in the tank than Mason, though I don’t expect Ravens fans to find out.
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Mar 7, 2010 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
I say ok...
SO sign them both and since we have added Stallworth for nearly nothing by NFL standings,now we have Boldin,why not bring back Mason, and sign T.O. the cost wouldn’t be outragious plus imagine that 4 receiver set.If you went 4 wide,Ray Rice would run crazy,because they couldn’t stack the box,ok they could and pay heavily for it.Also if Stallworth or Owens didn’t work out,shuck ‘em during the season.Clayton has proved to me,he was a good college receiver,but what have you done for me lately?Why not shove all your chips in the middle of the table and go for it.If the offense is better,so will be the defense.You have to re-sign Mason,he’s Joes security blanket,and he’ll shut up for the sake of the team,if theres a ring at the end…we have to many players that are getting long in tooth on Defense,the window is open now…go for it
Thom
Signing both is not realistic, moneywise. They will each require 3 mil a season minimum. And we already have stallworth, marcus smith, and clayton tendered at a 2nd rounder. If we can unload clayton for a draft pick, instead of paying him the 1-2 million he would receive, than maybe it would be realistic to give it a shot
You have to re-sign Mason,he’s Joes security blanket,and he’ll shut up for the sake of the team,if theres a ring at the end…
He didnt shut up on our best regular season team in 2007 when he felt he didnt touch the ball enough, even though he was our #1 and we were winning. What makes you think he would be fine as our #2/#3 just cuz he is winning.
You have to re-sign Mason,he’s Joes security blanket,
Joe might get better at spreading the ball around without Mase there to zoom in on. A security blanket can be a bad thing too, and we want him to build the same rapport with Boldin that he has had with Mase. Boldins YAC, among best in the league, is something we want to take advantage of, so needs to touch the ball 7-10 times a game…
I can gaurentee you that Joe will be spreading it out like never before
He is not that type of person. He really isn’t. What makes you think he will honestly stare down Mason the whole time when he has Boldin on the other side? I can only imagine that Joe is ready to have every completion go to Boldin. Plus, with Stallworth’s speed not an issue as we found out, Joe is going to have alot of fun throwing his seemingly easy 50 yard bomb.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Mar 7, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
I don’t think that Joe will (or ever was) staring down any receiver. The problem has always been that Mason was the only guy getting open. The other receivers were not able to separate from coverage. Throwing to Mason over and over was due to poor receivers and out of necessity.
Opposing teams need to look out next season. The Baltimore offense is poised to light it up.
That is untrue
He used to lock in on Mase, and finally when he had to get rid of it, dump it down to Rice.
by Rayisyourdaddy on Mar 7, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Eh
More an issue of Mason being the only guy open as Bal Hawk said. It is open to interpretation but you can’t say he is being untrue, because I saw the same thing as I’m sure many others did.
The problem has always been that Mason was the only guy getting open. The other receivers were not able to separate from coverage. Throwing to Mason over and over was due to poor receivers and out of necessity.
Not so
but mostly being that Mase was the first read and Flacco didn’t do well going thru his progressions last season, other than just checking down to Rice. That’s why Flacco threw so many Red Zone picks, as he threw to his first read open or not way too often.
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Mar 7, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not really agreeing with this. Flacco was spreading the ball around earlier in the year… when the team was 3-0 and projected to with the SB. However, teams began to figure out the scheme and how to cover our mediocre receivers as the year progressed. The receivers simply didn’t have the talent to compensate.
It’s like Cam always says… If you stay the same, you’re getting worse. You have to improve every week in the NFL because the tape is rewritten every week.
by BAL_Hawk on Mar 7, 2010 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good points, but5 the teams we played
in the first three weeks (even SD) were nowhere near the competition we faced over the next three (all losses). Once Flacco found Rice as a check down, he actually regressed in my opinion. Boldin gives him more reason to throw into the middle of the field instead of squeezing it in to Mason on the sidelines or Rice out of the backfield.
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Mar 8, 2010 8:28 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd actaully take TO
D-Mase is a one or two year option anyway and also agree that Boldin and Mason are similar players. I do not want Flacco looking for Mason first then Boldin, and if Mase’s here, Flacco will. Make Boldin the big target, TO the x-factor and either Stallworth or Clayton the 3rd option, with Rice out there along w/ Heap.
aka 'Rexx'
The New # 1
By virtue of the new contract, the age issue with Mason and very real possibility that Mason may not return if his demands are not met contractually, Boldin is the #1 option option in the passing game. It is uspoken and will probably remian so because of the Raven mentality of team first but you don’t pay a guy, bring him in, know that he is a capable #1 WR and then not make him your #1 target. A weakness has now become a strength and the new weapon needs to show dividends to justify the aquisition or we the fan base take issue and the media has a field also.
Even if Mason returns, I’m pretty sure the brass [Ozzi Newsome and Harbuagh] will have an understanding with Mason as to what and where he is in the pecking order in the offensive scheme. The wildcard is Stallworth. His speed, if his hamstrings hold up could provide a dimension to the offense unseen on a consistent basis for sometime in Baltimore. The route combinations are endless. Visions of purple sugar plums are dancing in my head!
by Cardsfan81 on Mar 7, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
With D-Mase being 36 years old, even Clayton might be a better and cheaper option. Boldin needs to be the guy and Mason would fight and take key receptions away from the better Boldin. Clayton would be happy just to come along for the ride and is much younger. Save the cash, let Mason end his career in limbo for the Dolphins going nowhere and add Clayton back to a very solid group of WR’s plus draft a WR and TE in April.
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Mar 7, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think that we should bring him back. He will have a better year in Baltimore than anywhere else. Furthermore, the Ravens will pay him more than any other team. He could be an effective receiver for the Ravens, and I can promise you that no team is going to give him the contract he’s asking for.
Really… it’s a win-win for both parties. Baltimore will pay him more than any other team (although it will be a smaller contract) and Mason can still be effective in Cam’s offense.
I disagree very strongly, Bruce. I cannot believe you would really want TO over Mason. I know for a fact Flacco is not going to be staring down Mason as much anymore. You know why he did that last year? It is because Clayton and the others sucked and couldnt get open. Mason is the best route runner in the NFL, still!. Amazing hands. I would take the sure fire catch by Mason over TO’s rapidly declining deep threat ability.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Mar 7, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the sanity bud
I would take the sure fire catch by Mason over TO’s rapidly declining deep threat ability.
I’m torn on this one because mason has the better hands and already knows the system, but I think T.O. is way more athletic than mason at this point and could be a greater big play threat. We know what we’ll get out of mason but, T.O. is a mystery. He could go off and have a huge year, could be unhappy being the #2, just don’t fit in our system and could be very unproductive. If we draft a WR than I kind of like taking the risk on T.O. but if we don’t I would feel more comfortable with Mason.
I just don’t see TO ever having above 70 catches for a team anymore. I have been told be so many people that he only likes to run 3 routes, the Sluggo, Go and Outside Slant. He won’t go in the middle, won’t do a curl (like Mason does) and only likes catching the ball in stride. Mason puts up hella better numbers than TO and he catches 3/4’s his balls while he is basically standing still off of a curl route.
I would welcome TO here with out a doubt, but I am not willing to swap him and Mason. Now, if we had to do because Mason signs else where or does not like our contract, so be it. But I think this team is done with Free Agent WR until the draft.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Mar 7, 2010 2:38 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Let him go cause problems in Cinci. That signing would help us just as much as it “helps” them.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
If Mason returns and can keep his ego in check with being a #2 (remember the year 3 yrs ago when his catches went down ?), I think he can go another 2 years and be highly complementary.
Boldin in the middle, Mason on the outside and Stallworth deep. Plus draft a young WR — that will work.
drafting a young WR is key
that way he can learn (hopefully) under the veterans and will have 2 years in the bag by the time Mason leaves
Verdict
Seems the general public is split. Half would like Mason, and if we can’t get him, half of those would take T.O. as a consolation, while the other half seemingly would STILL say no to T.O. The other half would take T.O. over Mase cuz they feel he brings things to the table that MAson doesn’t, and feel Mason’s skill set is accounted for in Boldin and to a lesser degree in Clayton.
Looking like it will be Clayton
over TO and probably Mason as well. Mason will get more from us and we are no longer desperate to sign a 36 year old guy for more than a year at a fair price, while Mase wants two years and bigger bucks.
aka 'Rexx'
I'm fine with Clayton
As long as we draft a talented WR in the top few rounds who will become a long term option for Joe. Maybe a Gilyard, or Johnson from GT in the second. If we can add a TE like Gresham it would help out the WR’s as well.
I can def see this happening if we find a way to pick up more picks by trading Gaither or by some other means. There are not many high end guys in the draft at WR but it looks to be extremely deep in talented pass catchers who can be had in rounds 2-5 and I think we’ll scoop at least one of them up in the draft.
by DT711 on Mar 9, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m kinda torn over trading Gaither. I know that it would be the best thing for the team in the long run, but I like the idea of having him for next season. Our offensive line is just so nasty with Oher and Gaither on the ends. Especially now… I really feel like the Ravens made a statement by pushing for Boldin. They are real contenders now. I’m sure that I’m not the only one on this blog (or elsewhere) that feels this way or gets the same impression from the organization. I felt the same way last year but was worried about the receivers. This year… there is definitely something bigger mounting.
As far as Clayton goes, I agree with you. Clayton is an excellent option for this year. Remember, we are talking about him being the number three receiver and maybe competing with Stallworth. It’s not like last year when we had absolutely no one behind him and he was the unquestioned number two. Clayton will work well in the slot. Who knows? Maybe he will excel in the slot receiver role. Either way, we do need to get a young guy that can be the long term option. I’m also thinking second round. Maybe Demaryius Thomas?
Love Demaryius Thomas
He is a big body WR, just what we need. Runs great routes and is physical with DB’s. He or Benn would be a great option for us.
I am all for Clayton staying here. Ozzie does not like to give up on high draft picks like that (Dwan Edwards, Cody, and even Boller). It is not like Clayton was Travis Taylor. Clayton was the #2 option behind a great possession WR in Mason in a run-first offense. He wasn’t missing games due to injury and did whatever we asked. Did he drop some balls, not run that great of routes? Sure he did, but we saw glimpses of greatness from him. Having a WR like Clayton who understands the system and his role here, enjoys being here and gives his all for us would be a great fit as our #3/4 guy.
It is very rare that you see a team with their #3 and #4 guys averaging about 40 catches, 600-700 yards and 4-5 tds in their careers playing as your slot and #4 guys. I like that, alot.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
Keep Mason
I know all receivers were new to Flacco in his rookie season, BUT I am not sure it is wise to replace all his receivers in 2010. T.O. will find a way to make a good catch but I think the connection between Flacco and Mason is special and worth holding onto. Mason is clutch and has proven himself over and over again. Hell he even played and made one handed catches with a dislocated shoulder! Maybe I am old school but I’ll take two clutch receivers who can consistently get open and pull through when we need them to regardless of whether they are similar type receivers. If Clayton winds up as the number 2 receiver I see no change in this offense. He will still disappear from games for extended periods of time. Offer Mason a 2 year contract and let him retire a Raven. He is a proven entity for this team. Draft a rookie WR and TE like Bruce says and start rebuilding while we still have Mason around to show the kids the ropes. Let Clayton and Stallworth fight it out for that third receiver slot. T.O> can go contaminate some other clubhouse.
No, let Mason go for boldin's sake
Regardless of what he says and Mason would say, Mason will “compete” w/ Boldin for touches and we all need Boldin to be the “guy.” Mason would not take being second here well. Stallworth and Clayton plus a nice young bigger kid thru the draft will be a solid receiving corp for Joe, plus do not forget about Heap and Rice as well. Enough for me.
aka 'Rexx'
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