'Football Outsiders' Breaks Down the 2009 Baltimore Ravens
Football Outsiders (www.footballoutsiders.com) has recently released their Football Outsiders 2009 Almanac, The Essential Guide to the 2009 NFL and College Football Seasons. It is a 558 page, incredibly detailed publication breaking down both the pro and college games into so many statisitcal categories on every NFL and every major college conference. It goes into such in depth information as even rating the medical staffs of the NFL teams.
Football Outsiders agreed to send me a copy of their 2009 guide, which includes six pages of information, analysis and prediction on the Baltimore Ravens in return for my review of their comments and responding with questions related to their findings and expected outcomes. After reading their section on the purple and black, trying to understand their unique analysis system, I came up with some questions, including one minor mistake that doesn't change their reasoning that the Ravens will not build on their success from 2008 and should see a significant drop off in 2009, both in offensive productivity and defensive scoring.
If you get a chance to visit their site (click here), it is worth your while to see the great lengths they've gone to in researching each and every team and making 2009 predictions based partly on 2008 performances in addition to their value system. Here are my questions for Bill Barnwell of Football Outsiders and their responses:
1. Why do you think the offensive gains made by the Ravens in 2008 will be "given back" in 2009?
There's a variety of reasons why. When we look at a team's performance in a given season and attempt to project their performance in the following campaign, we look at what they did in a variety of different manners and compare it to what we've seen league-wide in the past, to see what's sustainable and what's, well, fluky.
A good example is a concept we refer to as the "third-down rebound". In the NFL, a disproportionate amount of team success is related to how well a team performs on third down. It's something that's not only borne out in statistics, but makes sense when you think about it -- if a team strikes out on second down, they've got another chance to pick up a first down, but if they fail on third down, most times, they're punting.
What we've found is that teams that have a third down performance that's drastically different from their performance on first and second down tend to see that third down performance look more like their level of play on the other two downs in the following season. It's a very strong, reliable trend.
We track performance on a given down by using DVOA, our core metric. It measures performance on every play versus the league average after adjusting for the down, distance, game situation, and the quality of opposition. It's another concept that just plain makes sense -- four yards on third-and-3 against the Steelers in a tie game means a lot more than those same four yards on second-and-19 against the Lions when you're up 35 points.
The Ravens' DVOA on first down last year was -13.3%, which ranked 27th in the league. They got up to 9.5% on second down, which was 16th, but on third down, they had an impressive 30.0% DVOA, which was seventh-best in football.
While we can point to reasons why they might be ideally suited for third downs (Le'Ron McClain's ability as a short-yardage back and the team's success in power situation comes to mind), that's not enough to explain their dramatic level of success on third down. That's likely to regress to something closer to their play on the other two downs this year, resulting in a decrease in points scored. Baltimore was actually slightly better on third down than would have been expected in 2006 and 2007, but nowhere near the disparity that was in play last year.
Anecdotally, we also have concerns that the style of offense the Ravens were running last year isn't sustainable over the long term. The sort of gimmicky things that were implemented into the offense (unbalanced line, Wildcat, fullback belly handoff as a key component of the scheme) fell out of NFL playbooks for a reason; they're not viable long-term strategies for scoring points.
2. Page 19 has a mistake in that you write that Troy Smith threw a 43 yard TD pass to Joe Flacco from the Wildcat formation against the Raiders. While it was a 43 yard completion, it was NOT a TD, as Flacco fell down on the play and was stopped.
That's true, although it's not a question! We did make a mistake, but the point of the comment -- that the Ravens were, at that time, riding the crest of the Wildcat -- is reasonably valid regardless of whether Flacco fell down at the six-yard line or not.
3. Despite the "aging" Derrick Mason at WR along with either injured or inconsistent and inexperienced wide receivers, the Ravens had some decent success with their offense. Therefore, with a full year under his belt, plus a more experienced offensive line, why in the world would you expect the second year QB, Flacco, to have a "sophomore slump," which rarely happens in football compared to other sports such as baseball?
Of course, you can spin virtually any quarterback's situation in a positive manner (or a negative one, if so inclined). We could take the paragraph above and invert it and suggest that Flacco had an elite running game around him that came out of nowhere and may have been a one-year wonder, played against teams that didn't have any film on him and hadn't learned what he struggles against, has a group of receivers that alternately is unsure about playing (Mason), aging rapidly (Heap), yet to prove anything (Clayton), or an unquestionable mark on Ozzie Newsome's legacy (the execrable L.J. Smith), and an offensive line that's got question marks up and down the line outside of left tackle.
That wouldn't be fair, either, which is why we get past that sort of analysis and try and find the most prominent and reliable indicators of success.
First and foremost would be the third down situation mentioned above. When throwing the ball, Flacco had a -13.3% DVOA on first down, a -3.1% DVOA on second down, but a whopping 24.8% DVOA on third down.
You'd probably chalk that up to Derrick Mason, and you'd be right: Mason had a 7.2% DVOA on first down and a -0.7% DVOA on second down, but a downright-astounding 41.5% DVOA on his 36 attempts on third down.
Mason's unquestionably a superb third down target. But he's not THAT superb of a third down target. In 2007, his third down DVOA was 0.6%; in 2006, with a superior quarterback, it was 8.2%. Mason's a great target on third down (and an incredibly tough player), but his 2008 level of play on third down is just unsustainable, and that's going to affect Flacco's performance.
There's other factors as well. Flacco fumbled 12 times in 2008; he recovered 10 of them, which is luck, not skill; in general, fumble recoveries are a coinflip. (Think about the Cowboys game before you start arguing.)
In fact, the fumble issues were something that we looked at last year, when we projected the Ravens to make the playoffs before the season. In 2007, the Ravens recovered only five of the 25 fumbles that hit the ground; that's a ridiculous stretch of bad "luck", and something that can have a huge impact on a team's season.
4. With the return of key defensive starters lost to injuries most of 2008, there appears to be no reason why the Ravens’ defense can’t be as good, if not better than in the past year(s). Therefore, why can’t they have as many defensive TD’s as they did in 2008?
We actually project the Ravens' defense to be the best in football in 2009, in large part thanks to their already-established excellent play and the return of seemingly half the defense from injuries.
As for the defensive touchdowns, well, a great defense doesn't necessarily yield lots of defensive touchdowns (or vice versa). Last year, the team that led the league in defensive touchdowns was Green Bay; they were such a great defense that they fired their defensive coordinator and changed schemes in the offseason.
It's not impossible to think that they could have six defensive touchdowns (in the regular season) again by any means. It's just that teams don't consistently score defensive touchdowns from year-to-year, even if they have a great defense. The 2000 Ravens -- inarguably one of the best defenses in NFL history -- scored one defensive touchdown. The 2007 Ravens, featuring most of the same personnel as the 2008 team, also had one touchdown.
It's not just with Baltimore, either; it's league-wide. The top 50 scoring defenses from 1995 through 2007 scored an average of 35 defensive points in their big year. In the following season, they scored an average of 14.8 defensive points. Compare that to the 50 defenses that scored the fewest points over the same timeframe; in their scoring-free year, they averaged only 2.4 defensive points, but in the year after that, they averaged 14.2 points -- almost exactly as many as the "great" scoring defenses. Having Ed Reed helps, but you can't count on a team scoring a whole bunch of defensive touchdowns from year-to-year.
5. You say that while Ray Lewis may be considered the best ever to play his position when you look at his entire career, he is currently not in the top ten, although he is probably in the top 25. How can you seriously name 10 better linebackers than him right now? He may not be near the guy he was 10 years ago, but he is such a student of the game and is still as quick sideline-to-sideline as any linebacker, and there is still not anyone I’d rather have man the middle.
Well, in all fairness, you're also a Ravens fan. So that's sort of what you're supposed to say.
I don't know how I can necessarily "seriously name" a group of linebackers better than Lewis, but you have to read back what you said. There are lots of linebackers that are students of the game and study tons of film. Lewis is definitely a smart, cerebral linebacker, but does that make him a top-ten linebacker? No, not necessarily. (It's also really hard to quantify.)
I also don't have a timed measure of Lewis' ability to get sideline-to-sideline, nor do I suspect that anyone does, along with similar readings for each linebacker in the league. So it's hard to say that Lewis is as quick sideline-to-sideline as any linebacker, especially when you consider his age and the speed of younger linebackers.
As for not having anyone else in the middle? I can't say I'd disagree. There's nothing wrong with Ray Lewis; you just have to consider the context of the defense he plays in. He has a consistently very good defensive line in front of him, something that players like Patrick Willis and Barrett Ruud don't enjoy. He also has great players surrounding him at linebacker and in the secondary, players he certainly makes better with his leadership and his experience, but great players nonetheless.
Would I say that Lewis is among the ten best middle linebackers in the game? Sure. When you factor in players coming off the edge, though? I think you could make a pretty capable case for ten guys that, at this point in their careers, are better players than Ray Lewis.
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61 comments
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Comments
Differences
While we are all Ravens fans, we obviously pay more attention to our own team then the fellas writing this book or report (whatever its classified as). The people writing this book are more statistically oriented at trying to predict certain things whereas we as fans see what we have picked up in the offseason and what adjustments are made to ensure we will have a good if not better season than 2008. The people making this report probably pay equal attention to all teams but that doesn’t neccessarily mean equal in depth attention. Statistics are a good predictor before the season starts, but players get injured on our team and the teams were playing and thousands of circumstances during the season can factor into a teams success. Thats why I dont pay attention much to things like this.
by Rise&Conquer on Aug 16, 2009 4:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel like these guys are making up these insane stats and just using some combination of letters together to make it sound more impressive.
I found myself very confused with this whole thing. So Ray is not a top 10 Linebacker but Barret Ruud is? What team does he play for again?
Mike Singletary is arguably the greatest MLB of all time, his D-Line was incredible. Jack Lambert to some people is the greatest MLB of all time, his D-Line was even better!
Flacco and the Ravens have a -+=12.85% RBWIKTN on Sundays where the temperature is 56 degrees and it is the time of 1:36 pm and 2:14 pm.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Aug 16, 2009 5:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Ray Lewis makes 78.9% of his TFL which increases saterday afternoon by 23.48576%
FEAR THE NEVERMORE DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
by Benji5203 on Aug 16, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
Just did the number crunching on my calculator watch and got 23.48577%
Ravens defense will be ranked in the 92.5034 percentile based on the amount of times Ray Lewis says bottom line in all his interviews.
Willis McGahee had 26.33% YAC because his 3 children have 3 different mothers, which means a 33.3% increase in GHQZ if he also eats 6.8 ounces of grits on days that end in “Y.”
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Aug 16, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hilarious
You forgot about Mark Clayton’s abysmal QZPX rating of -11.3 when adjusted for opponents’ BAC. And that’s not even taking into account the CBO estimate that Joe Flacco’s second year improvement will increase the defecit by .2% in the subsequent fiscal year.
by jackmca on Aug 17, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barret Ruud is on the Bucs and is one od the best young MLBs in the league.
by archon095 on Aug 17, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, but to say that Ruud is better than Ray Lewis today, come on. You have to choose between Ruud and Lewis on your team for next year, who are you picking?
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Aug 17, 2009 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you let these guys tell it,
all talent should be evaluated based on statistics with no reference whatsoever to a player’s physical potential or learning curve. So I think I speak for most of us when I say that these numbers will not accurately predict Flacco’s future success. Although his criticisms of Flacco last year—that he got inordinately lucky on 3rd downs—may have some meat to them, they fail to realistically project the progression of a quarterback who is “obviously very intelligent,” in the words of ESPN’s Scouts Inc.
by jackmca on Aug 17, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For next year definitely Ray Ray. For say the next five Ruud.
by archon095 on Aug 18, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lorenzo Neal
I wonder if they had anything to say about how losing Lorenzo Neal is going to affect our offense. I don’t see us being able to use the power run game with nearly the same amount of success using Rice running behind McLain or McLain running behind who? Jason Cook?
by brek on Aug 16, 2009 6:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not re-signing Neal
Was the one move I disagree with this offseason. We probably could have brought him back for next to nothing, never did see the terms of the Raiders deal though…
by adh on Aug 16, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't need Neal
OL will open holes, along w/ McClain and besides, rookie FB Jason Cook will do fine if used.
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Aug 17, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
need and want are different things
we won’t need him but we may wish we had him if Cook goes down or struggles. he IS a rookie after all
by jackmca on Aug 17, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We also have a package w/ Ngata
at FB on goal line situations! Ouch.
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Aug 18, 2009 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
which is sweet but he’s not a full time fullback. Just means that we’ll be using McClain less since he has either a rookie or a starting DT as a lead blocker.
by jackmca on Aug 18, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2007 was the aberration
Everyone predicted the Ravens to finish at the bottom of the AFC North last year, based on how bad they did in 2007. Yet they had won the division the year before with essentially the same team and a healthy McNair. So now people are saying that they can’t match last year. LOL. I just want to see Rothlisberger on his backside a bunch more and everything else will fall into place :-)
by NFL Sage on Aug 16, 2009 8:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I honestly really like the Football Outsiders metric
and their system predicted we’d do very well last year (win the division, actually), so I’d be hesitant to bash it just because they undercut us this year.
They also really liked us all last season.
I agree with Bill that our offensive performance last year isn’t suistainable. We simply cannot run as run-heavy and gimmicky of an offense. That offense was Joe’s training wheels, and it got wrecked by every decent defense we faced.
That being said, I think they’re missing three crucial points.
1) Joe Flacco’s first half and second half performance last regular season were exceptionally different. Given the circumstances, Joe Flacco in the second half is more predictive than Joe Flacco in the first half. We were still running gimmicks in the first half. We still handed off to the fullback, and while the defenses in the first five games of the season (Cincy, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tennessee, Indy) are better than the defenses we faced in the second half (Miami, Oakland, Houston, Washington, Cincy, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Philly, Giants, Dallas, and Jacksonville), the performance by Joe Flacco was dramatically different, and he did have some solid games against good defenses, like Dallas. I’d say his second half performance is a better baseline for what we should expect from him.
2) We get our Bye week back, which is a positive, impossible to measure effect on team performance.
3) The gimmicky offense with the run first game was clearly Joe Flacco’s training wheels. The training wheels are coming off this season. I think it was a great idea for developing a young QB, but those gimmick’s aren’t what our offense is going to be next season.
by math_geek on Aug 16, 2009 11:03 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You can almost sense his amusement at the leading nature of the questions… “why in the world”, “there appears to be no reason”, “how can you seriously”… haha.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
by kwoog on Aug 17, 2009 11:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What we’ve found is that teams that have a third down performance that’s drastically different from their performance on first and second down tend to see that third down performance look more like their level of play on the other two downs in the following season. It’s a very strong, reliable trend.
How many of those teams included in your review had rookie QBs going into their second seasons? Their performance will not likely remain static, so the statistic is not relevant because it assumes that Flacco will continue to play at his rookie level, rather than elevate his play as his career continues.
by jackmca on Aug 17, 2009 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Players other than second year vets can elevate their play.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
by kwoog on Aug 17, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll throw this out there, b/c some on this site were comparing the two earlier this off season. Joe Thomas. Jared Gaither.
Now, of course that’s just one source. But it’s also a huge spread, as large as the one between Tom Brady and Philip Rivers. No one would claim Rivers is in Brady’s league. As Gaither isn’t in Thomas’.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
by kwoog on Aug 17, 2009 2:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t subscribe to ESPN insider… so seeing how old the players were wasn’t too helpful.
Measuring individual OL is one of the most difficult things to do.
The Core of the Thomas/Gaither debate is as follows (literally ripped from
Let’s take 2 players, Gaither and Joe Thomas. How do I decide who I think has more upside? Here are the factors I’d consider:
1. Age. Gaither is 16 months younger. Since most upside is achieved by age 26 or 27, this represents a moderate edge to Gaither.
2. Health outlook. Thomas has been very durable in 2 seasons. Gaither’s shoulder injury probably has some recurrence risk. Moderate edge to Thomas.
3. Retrospective health as reflected in productivity. Gaither played with an injury for a portion of 2008. Let’s not over dramatize. He wasn’t “playing all season with 1 arm”, but he injured it at the Meadowlands in week 11 and looked to me to be fully recovered in week 14 against the Redskins when he again was blocking effectively with both arms. To the best of my knowledge, no injury has impacted Thomas’ play to this point in his career (started 32 of 32 games). That’s terrific, but it’s legitimate to expect that Gaither can play a little better than he did in 2008 based solely on the past injury. Small edge to Gaither which does not make up for the health outlook, as you can see.
4. Time at the position. Gaither still hasn’t played a lot of games at LT in his entire life. Unbelievably, he was a RT (who the hell did this team have at LT?) at Hargrave Military Academy (a VA HS powerhouse). He only played about a dozen games at LT for MD. The year before he was drafted, he was primarily a RT.
Thomas on the other hand was a corn-fed stud at LT who earned HS All American status (in addition to starring defensively), started 37 of his 47 college games at LT, and 32 of 32 pro games. To project improvement on a player with very well-devloped talent and this long at the position would be much akin to projecting Cal Ripken for enormous improvement after 1984.
To clarify, Ripken was at the top of mountain at age 23 after the 1984 season. The remainder of his career certainly had peaks (1991), but in the winter of 1984, career projection models for baseball would have told you with durability that he’d finish among the 10 greatest players ever. He certainly delivered on the durability, so what was wrong with that prediction? Well his skills were highly honed in a family that ate, drank, and slept baseball since he was very young. Also, when a young player has consecutive top-shelf seasons (as Ripken did in 1983-84), if you want to guess his career value, you have a better chance to be accurate by assuming he’s also made adjustments more quickly than the competition and they inevitably will catch up.
Thomas is great, but Gaither gets a moderate edge here in terms of future development opportunity.
5. Correctable flaws. Gaither has (or had) a big one here. He was flagged 12 times in 2009. Many of them are correctable (false starts, an inexplicable illegal man downfield penalty vs. the Raiders). He improved to be flagged just twice (both FS) in the last 9 RS games, but was then flagged 3 more times in the playoffs. Thomas was flagged 6 times in 2009. This is a small edge to Gaither, but I think I’m really giving an example of what I mean in 4 above, so I won’t count it.
Purely as blockers Gaither and Thomas grade out similarly for 2008. However, add these up and you have some significant reasons to expect more improvement for Gaither than Thomas over the next couple of years.
by math_geek on Aug 17, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only thing is
Thomas was a first round pick, so everyone will know his name and elect him to pro-bowls simply because of that fact. 90% of people who regularly follow football probably have no idea who Gaither is.
If not for him failing out of Maryland (Still do not understand how you can flunk outta this school) he would have most likely been a top 15 pick.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Aug 17, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering Thomas isn’t Anthony Munoz yet, I think he has considerable room for upside as well. In essence, your points are taken, but I think you’re over penalizing Thomas for being great (relative to competition) all his life, and over-assuming a bigger upside in Gaither b/c, simply, he has a longer ways to go b/c he hasn’t been great all his life.
I’d also argue against them grading out similarly (again, not looking at “dummy stats”, ie sacks allowed, team rush yards), and I’d be more inclined to trust people who actually look at every single play of every single game (I certainly don’t do that). And a group of people that do this (Scouts Inc), graded Thomas #2/a 90, and Gaither #22, a 74.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
by kwoog on Aug 18, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe I'm saying this....
but Gaither is nowhere at Thomas’ level. He may be in a year or two, as he wouldhave been a top 10 pick had he stayed in school.
At the same time, I’m going to write a story on this, but….the Ravens did not draft Michael Oher to be our right tackle- for long. He is a true left tackle and was one of th ebest in college football last year. He will be a great left tackle, here in Baltimore and sooner than most Ravens fans want to accept. I read his book, ‘The Blind Side’ and althoufgh I’ve heard that Oher doesn’t like it (it makes him look like a dummy for most of it), it was a great read and will be a good movie (coming out 11/20/09).
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Aug 18, 2009 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you think we will let Jared walk?
B/C I don’t see him taking a RT contract next year, seeing as Rosenhaus is his agent and all.
by DT711 on Aug 18, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely see Gaither leaving
Rosenhaus is going to brainwash him just like he has all the other players he represents. Rosenhaus will convince Gaither into taking $4 million more than we offer to play on the 49ers or Lions.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Aug 18, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think that's true
Gaither knew he lost a lot of money by virtue of the fact that he was picked in the Supplemental draft. He wants a very different look to his next contract and in a way, he’s smart to pick Rosenhaus because he will certainly bring home the bacon. If money is what you really care about, Rosenhaus is the man for you. He may put you on a losing squad with a poorly run organization, but you’ll watch that bank account fill up and feel a little better about it all.
It’s just a bummer that we’ll probably be picking a tackle in the first round again.
by jackmca on Aug 18, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RT
Maybe Cousins will be ready by then. He is still a project and regardless of his play last Thursday, the coaches are still high on his potential.
If not, we can find a cheaper RT option somewhere later in the draft or FA when the time comes.
by DT711 on Aug 18, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RT is one of the easier positions in the NFL to fill quickly. Look at Willie Anderson. There will be a RT free agent out there somewhere next year and Ozzie will make a move for him.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Aug 18, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell that to the Steelers. We still cant get rid of Colon.
by archon095 on Aug 18, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colon was holding against us
so much that I thought someone had paid him to throw the game for Pitt.
by jackmca on Aug 19, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t see us drafting another Tackle next year in the first round. No shot Ozzie does that. We will breed someone from later picks or guys we already have. Cousins could do it, he just needs to stop holding.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Aug 18, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and stay healthy. He has a huge belly and ghetto butt as well. Needs to follow Oher’s example and get fit!
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Aug 18, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Note… Those words weren’t mine… I actually tried to link to another forum and quote it and failed at the link. Here;s the link now
As for the author, he actually did watch Jared Gaither for all 16 games last season, and rewatched each offensive snap for his offensive line grading system. I like his analysis, and he thought extremely highly of Jared Gaither last year. Most notable is Jared Gaither against the Houston Texans. This was before he got hurt, and he simply dominated Mario Williams. He dominated Super Mario so much they moved Williams to the other side in the second half, where he abused Adam Terry. Gaither definitely has room to grow. Especially against 3-4 Rush Linebackers, which is extremely important in this division. But, in part, that’s where the upside comes in.
As for Scouts, Inc. ESPN is entertaining, but it’s still ESPN. They have a predilection towards telling us what we already think we know. I don’t pay for Insider… although I certainly miss the Football Outsiders articles there.
There are certainly other sources that think Jared Gaither was excellent last year. ProFootballFocus.com being one of them. The Football Outsiders Almanac at one point said that Gaither struggled in pass protection and at another point said that he kept the Quarterback clean. I would love to ask Bill Barnwell which one it is.
I also think Gaither takes some flack for the amount of Max Protect the Ravens ran the past year. We ran Max Protect a lot, but I suspect a lot of it was that Flacco wasn’t ready to read 4-5 receiver progressions and sending out receivers that weren’t part of the progression would have been stupid.
by math_geek on Aug 19, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only half the teams the Ravens play in division are 3-4 teams. Steelers obviously run a 3-4 but the Bengals run a 4-3. I’m not entirely sure the Browns run a defense and if they do they certainly don’t rush the passer.
by archon095 on Aug 19, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the Browns technically do run a 3-4, but Kameiron Wimbley has basically been a creampuff the past two years.
And any argument that the Bengals defense is somehow more scary than the Browns defense seems to be fallacious.
by math_geek on Aug 19, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the bengals' 43 is definitely better than the browns' 34
until further notice. Maybe the Mangini regime will change that and teach them how a 34 is really supposed to be run, but what I saw from them last year was not impressive.
The bengals were a pretty decent defense last year, especially in the last 8 weeks, and they will get a lot better if they can just learn to rush the passer. They’re much closer to truly being a good defense than the Browns are.
In any event, 2 of the 3 teams we play in the division run 34.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
--George Orwell
by jackmca on Aug 20, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The bengals “solid” defense was an illusion last year. They were bad, but were always playing from behind so team’s ran on them a lot.
by math_geek on Aug 20, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
you don’t finish 12th in the NFL by accident, especially when you have an offense that can’t stay on the field. In a lot of their losses, Cincy wasn’t behind by so much, and they did a good job of stopping good offenses like Philly.
Regardless, even if you think their D was bad, you can’t possibly argue that it was worse than Cleveland’s. There’s no comparison. I’d rank the AFCN 2008 Defenses as follows:
Pittsburgh: A+
Baltimore: A
Cincy: B/B-
Cleveland: D
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
--George Orwell
by jackmca on Aug 20, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I realize the Browns run a 3-4 I was just making fun of their lack of a real defense.
by archon095 on Aug 20, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear they are planing on running a 1-6 this year.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Aug 22, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In all honestly, I think many feel that Gaither is not in Thomas’ league because of where they were drafted. How many pro-bowl Tackles do you see that were drafted after the 3rd round. None I believe. Not even that many in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. It is usually the first round draft picks that make the pro-bowl because people are not aware of the late drafted picks.
I guess I will give Thomas the edge just because I feel that he has reached his prime already, which is rather incredible. But Gaither is a top 10 tackle in this league kwoog. He may also be the most athletic Left Tackle in the league, most certainly the biggest at 6’9" 340. I cannot recall the exact statistic, but Gaither was like 2nd or 3rd last year in sacks allowed from the Left Tackle position.
It is so hard to gage how well all the lineman did, because there is really not a good statistical category for them.
Math Geek just made an insane comment below while I was typing this, which supports the argument way better then mine does.
Kwoog, Gaither is becoming an elite LT in this league and do not be surprised if you see him get a ridiculous contract after next year. Might even be with a different team, but I sure hope not.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Aug 17, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you guys got very good value in picking Gaither, and he’s certainly a serviceable LT in the league with a ton of upside. I don’t think he’s “broken out”, performance wise yet, but you guys obviously think he has.
The only reason I linked to these two pages were because they were from Scout’s Inc, which I don’t think is subject to the Pro-Bowl/Draft Round bias that you mention (which I admit exists in other places). Scouts Inc are the kind of guys that pour over every single play in a 16 game schedule, noting what the player’s assignment was and whether they executed it, not just relying on the sometimes misleading stats taken in football (sacks against, INT, etc.). And these guys ranked Thomas #2 at a 90, and Gaither tied for #22 at a 74. My point was, even if Scouts Inc isn’t the end-all be-all of player rankings, no reputable ranking would compare, say, a Brady to a Rivers. And according to Scouts Inc, the gap between these two AFC North Tackles is similar to that.
However, maybe I’m putting too much stock in one, albeit thorough, source.
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
by kwoog on Aug 18, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once again, I do agree w/ kwoog, but...
…please don’t lump me in with him as a friend (yikes!). Gaither had too many holding penalties and is held in much higher esteem in Baltimore than outsde of it. Besides, is Minny’s Bryant McKinnie even bigger than Gaither (6’9", 360)?
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Aug 18, 2009 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My friends are sweet, Bruce. You should want to be in their company!
www.lowbrowsophisticate.com
by kwoog on Aug 18, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By sweet, I hope you are talking
about the ladies. If not, then…..nevermind!
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Aug 18, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They even rate the teams' Medical Staffs!
But they base it on the number of games missed by the starters! As if the medical staff can prevent a guy from planting his foot and having his ACL blow out! They should base it somehow on how fast they get injured players back into the lineup – or not rate them at all!
aka 'Rexx'
by Bruce Raffel on Aug 18, 2009 8:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Browns had to be dead last
A different player gets a Staph Infection every week.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Aug 18, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 bruce +1 MaLoR
So many of these ratings make no sense. EA Sports should just pony up some cash and let Scouts Inc. rate the players for them. Not sure what sort of money that would take, as I’ve never participated in a video game scouting staff salary negotiation process before, but I do know right now that whoever does the ratings is showing some serious symptoms of part-time NFL Fandom.
Maybe EA Sports hates us, maybe their ratings just suck. The Saints are a 74 overall and they definitely deserve to be better than that.
by jackmca on Aug 19, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think EA hates us
I mean Ray did make the cover in 05, and I loved those commercials when he was lifting up the field line! I just think that no matter where you go, there is atleast 1 person who hates us, usually more. And I mean that, I bet I can find someone who hates the Ravens anywhere I go. And people actually hate us, for whatever reason or another, thats just the way it is. EA is just simple in my opinion, maybe they out too much effort into improving game play that they got lazy on the ratings.
Scott Hines
by shines on Aug 19, 2009 2:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that's my thinking as well
I think a few other teams/players in the game also got the shaft, so we shouldn’t get all inferiority-complex-ish about this.
by jackmca on Aug 19, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most def.
I mean we got burned as far as madden moments go, theres no reason the Dallas game shouldnt have made the cut. Along with that comeback against Cleveland. And when a rookie drives down the field in the expiring minutes of a road playoff game for the win, he deserves to be acknowledged. If people want to complain about Flacco getting an extra half second or so, feel free. The Baltimore v Tennessee game from earlier in the year made the cut, and how could you forget the roughing the passer that never happened. Its gotta be a 2 way street.
Scott Hines
by shines on Aug 19, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea
The most glaring omission to me is the Dallas game. I can see the line now…“Play as the Ravens and break off two long TD runs in the 4th quarter to spoil the Cowboys final game celebration in Dallas Stadium.”
Jerry Jones probably paid EA Sports off to make that one go away.
by DT711 on Aug 19, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well the other problem is
how can you make “breaking two 80+ yard touchdowns” a requirement to fulfill a madden moment? It needs to be something like “drive the field and score” or “stop the drive after your QB throws a pick!” Those are things where you can play your style of madden and complete the goal. For ours, we kindof had an absurdly improbably string of events lift us over the Cowboys. It was still my favorite game of last year, but it would be tough to make a Madden Moment out of it.
What SHOULD be the Madden Moment is the Browns game when Flacco led the comeback. I would have written the little instructions as: “Defy the odds as a rookie QB and lead your team to a comeback victory in a pivotal divisional road game!”
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
--George Orwell
by jackmca on Aug 19, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs












