Bringing Boldin to Baltimore
by Rayisyourdaddy on Apr 18, 2009 10:18 PM EDT
79 comments
Anyone who has a problem giving up a 1st rounder for Boldin is nuts. There is about a 45% success rate at drafting WR, and that doesn't take into account the years it takes for that WR to develop. While Boldin wants more money, it will also cost us money to sign a 1st round draft pick. Not as much, but why pay a guy like DHB or Britt or Nicks 2 million a year for the next 2 years to develop, plus a signing bonus, when you can pay a little more money to Boldin to start contributing on a pro-bowl level immediately. I don't get the logic.
Now obviously, the starting point is a 1st and a 3rd rounder, so i figure Ozzie is going to bargain a little, especially since we only have 6 total picks in this draft. There is a rumor of Heap being involved in the deal. If it would cost us our 1st and Heap for Boldin i would do it in a second, because it would also mean we would have Heap's money to pay Boldin. Plus, maybe we could resign L.J. Smith if he has a good year, and we would then draft a TE prob in the 3rd or 4th round. Or maybe Ozzie will try to make the second pick in the trade into a 2010 pick, either 3rd or 4th round, because we need depth this year, and we wouldn't want to go in with one 1st day pick.
People have to take into account how long it takes WR to develop. Most WR do not contribute much as a rookie, and many still dont contribute much as a sophomore either. So if you take the failure rate (55%) plus the rookie not contributing rate, in the end the chances of drafting a WR who will contribute before Ray and Birk are ready to retire are around 10%. So i don't care to bank on that 10% when we have a 3 year window for a Super Bowl with Ray and this great team.
1st round WR since 2000: (37)
Pro-bowl caliber- Calvin Johnson, S. Holmes, B. Edwards, Roy Williams, Roddy, White, Fitz, Andre Johnson, Wayne, S. Moss, Burress 10/37
Starters-Ginn, Bowe, A. Gonzalez, Mark Clayton, Lee Evans, Michael Clayton, J. Walker, K.Robinson 8/37
Backups- Meachem, Davis, M. Jones, Michael Jenkins, Bryant Johnson, Stallworth, Lelie 7/37
Busts-Williamson, Mike Williams, Rashaun Wood, C. Rogers, D. Terrell, F.Mitchell, Warrick, T. Taylor, Soward, S. Morris 10/37
So there is a 18/37 48% chance of a 1st rounder being a starter, and a 10/37 27% chance of him being a pro-bowler. Isn't it better to take the higher odds of Boldin being a pro-bowler (obviously you need to factor in him sucking or getting inured) and give up a little more instead of drafting an unsure thing that will take a year or 2 to contribute at a high level, if at all.
And for all those looking for us to draft a WR in the 2nd round, the success rate is even lower.
2nd round WR since 2000: (41)
Pro-bowl caliber- Boldin, Chad Johnson, Greg Jennings 3/41
Starters- Avery, Eddie Royal, DeSean Jackson, S Rice, V. Jackson, Deion Branch, Antonio Bryant, Chris Chambers, Jerry Porter 9/41
Backups-Steve Smith, Reggie Brown, Devery Henderson, Andre Davis, Reche Caldwell, Antwaan Randle El, Dennis Northcutt 7/41
Inconclusive-Devin Thomas, Jordy Nelson, J Hardy, Simpson, M. Kelly, Sweed, Dexter Jackson, Jarrett 8/41
Busts-Sinorice Moss, Chad Jackson, Mark Bradley, Parrish, Murphy, Darius Watts, Keary Colbert, Taylor Jacobs, Bethel Johnson, T. Calico, Tim Carter, Quincy Morgan, Robert Ferguson, Todd Pinkston 14/41
In the 2nd round, there is a much higher bust rate (34%, leaving out all of last years class that didnt contribute (7 WR's)), and a much lower pro-bowl rate (.7%, also leaving out last years class) What falls in the middle are mediocre, contributing 3rd WR's, which is not what the Ravens are looking for.
So for all those looking for Ozzie to draft a WR and develop him, both his track record (travis taylor, patrick johnson, mark clayton), and the league's track record (1st round 27 % pro bowl, 48 % starter, and 2nd round 3 % pro bowl, 29 % starter) indicate that it makes much more sense to trade for a proven pro bowler in his prime and pay him more money, than to give half that money to a 1st rounder who will take 1-3 years to develop assuming he doesn't end up a bust, even if you have to give up an additional mid-round pick.
So although you might be a big fan of Kenny Britt, or Hakim Nicks, or DHB, or Harvin, the logic points to the path with a higher success rate: trade.
The Eagles and Patriots both went this route with Moss and Owens and made the Super Bowl the following season, although they lost. The next team to join that list should be the Ravens and Boldin.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2009/02/catching_on_drafting_a_wide_re.html
http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2009/02/wide_receivers_a_roll_of_the_d.html
The opinions posted here are those of the administrator of this blog and his loyal readers. They are in no way official comments from the team, and should not be misconstued as such, even though he thinks he could do just as well or even a better job!
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i say no boldin
we have talented receiver already stop being greedy and for the ravens to trade heap would be dumb in my opinion anquan boldin equal too much money every body say it with me boldin equal to much money the ravens just need to resign derrick mason and hopefully demetrius william , justin harper, marcus smith and mark clayton develop into that receiver everybody wants
by jazz20 on Apr 17, 2009 2:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jazz
You seem to think that Harper, Smith and Williams are the answer. They are not, and even for arguements sake lets say one of them becomes the next Larry Fitzgerald, is he going to be that good before Ray retires? If one of them does end up that good, we can trade Boldin in 2 or 3 years for a similar bounty than we gave up. But meanwhile we dont have good enough WR that we can bank on them helping us win a superbowl. We are a mason or clayton injury away from starting Mr Malor at WR! We have no depth and we are relying too much on Mason to stay healthy at 35 years old. And I’m not sure why you think trading Heap is a bad idea, he hasn’t shown us anything in 3 years, and he makes about the same amount of money as Boldin will want. So it’s win-win.
by Rayisyourdaddy on Apr 17, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
last season was rookie year
matt ryan took the falcons to the player off, joe fiacco took the ravens to the afc championships and won two play off games. Ray I understand what you are saying but be for real, heap didn’t get the ball as much as he should but he perform very well last year you can’t say he didn’t and he caught balls that seen like he wouldn ‘t had never caught.If joe fiacco can perform like a veteran why can’t other rookies can perform the same way, like they say you can’t judge a book by it’s cover, so what im saying is there might be a boldin or any other great widereceiver that you can mention that the ravens already have as wide receiver but just have not have a shot let and forreal it look like ozzie not even stressing about a wide receiver,
by jazz20 on Apr 17, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
plenty of rookie WR
Plenty rookie WR contribute their rookie years. Look at Donnie Avery, Desean Jackson, Eddie Royal, Tedd Ginn, etc. They all contributed their rookie years. Yah they were drafted a little higher, but its not like any of our guys caught even 2 passes all year in a year when we had no reliable #3 WR, meaning there were plenty of opportunities.
I cannot believe you are saying that Heap had a good year. He had many drops at bad times, and did not step up his game at all. If he had caught 50 balls instead of 35, our offense would have been insane. I know he had to stay in and block alot, but that does not excuse his lack of production. Don’t blame it on Flacco.
And you didnt address my most important point. that even if one of our guys will end up being a pro-bowler, he most likely will not do it in Ray’s career. Which is the point. Acquiring Boldin is a win now transaction without mortgaging the future. Drafting busts at WR sets teams back a 5-10 years. Giving up 2 picks for boldin fills our hole immediately and for another 5-8 years.
by Rayisyourdaddy on Apr 18, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought his blocking was marginal at best
and the combination of average blocking plus average (again, at best) receiving, means that Heap is nothing more than an average TE. Certainly not an elite TE in the league, but certainly being paid as one. That, is a problem that will need to be resolved if it re-occurs in 2009.
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 19, 2009 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok
ray I understand what you saying but what im saying is if joe fiacco can show his talents like he did last seasonwhay cant any other rookie do the same thing. I have answer your question Im not blamming joe fiacco for anything but using him as a example. I am saying once again you cant under estimate some one for just how they perform yesterday becuase yesterday is long gone just like money for example you may have $2,000 this year but next year you may have $40,000. what im saying is heap may not have shown so much last year but he still contributed to the team and made a touch down and he may better this year and for you to say that about a rookie widereceiver most likely can’t become a pro bowler in his first year then I think you wrong just look at joe fiacco what did he do in his first year? took the ravens to a the afc championship and made history as the frist rookie to win two playoff game,no he didn’t make it to the pro bowl but he still shown that he had the potentials to reach a staus such as big names like tom brady,peyton manning, donovan Mc nabb and others. boldin is a great player but we have great players as well thats all im saying and what if Boldin slip up and play for the rasvens and drop a pass i bet you be writing a article saying we need to get rid of Boldin, it can happen I mean look at jamal lewis he not as good as he used to be.
by jazz20 on Apr 19, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rookie WR's
Jazz- Can you do me a favor and try to punctuate?
I hear wat you are saying, but there is a difference. WR has a steep learning curve, as does QB, but when a rookie QB starts the team will simplify the offense for him, but for a rookie WR they usually won’t. So the curve ends up being steeper for the WR, and the transition is not very smooth usually. They jam more at the line in the NFL, and you need to learn new routes and get used to the more physical style. So WR’s generally take 2-3 years to hit their stride. There are exceptions, but since Smith and Harper should us nada, i highly doubt they will be ready to contribute on a high level this year or next. The last WR i remember being dominant in his rookie year, ironically is Boldin.
The main point is, if we want to win it all in the next 3 years while Ray, Birk, and Pryce are still wearing purple, our best chance is with Boldin on our team. The picks we have to give up are not an issue. Some people don’t like that we have to give him a bigger contract. It is definitely worth it. Maybe we can include a player like Willis or Heap so we wont be messing up our cap for him.
My vote is our 1st and Willis for Boldin and their 3rd, or our 1st and Heap for Boldin. Hopefully Ozzie gets it done
by Rayisyourdaddy on Apr 19, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
Ray but you just answer my question and I understand what you are are truly saying. I notice you said that “the last WR I remember being dominant in his rookie year, Ironically is Boldin” (wow lol) I see it as this if boldin can do it then why can’t any other wideout do it as well? I enjoy the debate that we had it was fun in away you help me learn somethings but I can’t see the ravens signing Boldin it’s much money and not really necessary in my view . The Ravens made it to play off without Boldin and if I’m not wrong but didn’t the team Boldin play for lose the Super Bowl (hmmm) yeah they did, what i’m saying is that you can’t rely on one person to make a team but a team makes a team, just cause one super star Player on a team doesn’t mean that that team going to be the best team ever
by jazz20 on Apr 19, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boldin was a 3rd round pick
Not a 2nd.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 17, 2009 2:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorry Malor
You are wrong. I pulled it off wikipedia because it was most accessible. look elsewhere if you dont believe me, but dont tell me im wrong without checking your facts.
Anquan Kenmile Boldin (pronounced /AN-kwan/) (born October 3, 1980 in Pahokee, Florida) is a professional American football player. He was chosen by the Arizona Cardinals in the 2003 NFL Draft out of Florida State University. He was drafted in the 2nd round because of his relatively slow combine speed.1 His speed has proved no impediment to success. Boldin was named NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year in 2003 by the Associated Press. He is known as one of the league’s most physical receivers.
by Rayisyourdaddy on Apr 17, 2009 3:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For some reason i was thinking of owens
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 17, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wikipedia is not always right, though.
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 18, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Round 2, pick #22
Charles Rogers was #2 pick of first round and Andre’ Johnson was taken after him. Not too shabby. Think Detroit made amistake. I think Rogers was just sentenced to jail for something.
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 18, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
If we trade for Boldin, we still have to re-sign him to a new deal. He wants about 9-10 million a year. Baltimore doesn’t have the cap room to do that. Lets not forget we still have to get T-Sizzle a New contract among others like Ngata, Clayton, mason, etc. Even if we did trade away heap with that deal, he’s only worth about 5 million. Besides, I don’t want L.J. Smith as our main TE. We only have about 6 picks in this years draft and ozzie would like to gain more picks rather then lose some, even if it means bringing in a guy like boldin. I just think that Boldin is going to the egales rather then us and we should go ahead and get ourselves a young WR and try to make a run at a superbowl with the team we have.
FEAR THE NEVERMORE DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
by Benji5203 on Apr 17, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Boldin wants 9-10 million
Benji-
So Heap is making 6 million, and our 1st rounder would probably make 2 million (last years #26, OT Duane Brown signed a 5 year 11.5 mil contract with 6.2 mil guaranteed., and LB Jon Beason for 5 year 12.51 mil contract, 6 million guaranteed). That is the equivalent of what Boldin wants a year basically. So while i too wouldnt love to have L.J. Smith as our #1 TE, i think we would draft one in the 3rd round if we didnt trade our 3rd rounder this year, and we would be rid of Heaps contract, which he currently isnt worth.
I disagree that we would have to choose between Suggs, Ngata and Boldin. We have Ogden’s large contract coming off the books, money to pay Ngata, Mcnair’s money coming off the books, thats money to pay Suggs, and the money we save on heap will pay 2/3 of boldin’s salary, plus mason’s 4 million will come off the books after this year. So we have plenty of money to pay all 3 under the current cap.
And the Eagles are probably out of the running for Boldin after trading the 2nd of their 1st rounders and a 4th rounder for Jason Peters…
by Rayisyourdaddy on Apr 17, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So that leaves us and NYG?
For some reason, I feel like Ozzie is not interested. I am just waiting for a video to come out where he says “we have had no talk with the Cardinals”
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 17, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hope im wrong though
I think its smart to ask yourself this.
“Is Hakeem Nicks or Heyward-Bey and another WR in the 3rd round better then Boldin”
I dont think they are better then getting Boldin. I understand the “building for the future” stuff, but this team is living in the now. Right NOW we can win a superbowl with who we have playing for us. Adding Boldin would put us over the top and the best team in the AFC North, In my biased opinion of course.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 17, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Be serious, MaLoR!
No way Ozzie uses our first AND third for WR’s. He just isn’t like that. Perhaps a 5th-7th, but not in the first four rounds would he use two of those picks both on wideouts.
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 18, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You never know
If Nicks was taken in the first and robiskie is there at our pick in the 3rd, why wouldnt he? BPA right? Anyway, I was just making a point that even IF we did pick 2 WR with out 1st and 3rd, Boldin still has most value then those 2 picks.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 18, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn dude
You’ve really done your reseach huh? Now that I think about it more and more, I think this is a great deal for us. I think baltimore will keep heap and part ways with a 1st and 3rd for boldin. With that 2nd round pick, we can get ourselves a soild RT (Phil Loadholt anyone) to protect Joe cool. The trade may leave us with only 4 picks in the draft, but who better can find talent with late round picks then ozzie? Good stuff Ray, you the man.
FEAR THE NEVERMORE DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
by Benji5203 on Apr 17, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ehh
thats alot we would have to give up….
what about Marvin Harrison for cheap?
Whats Holt’s price?
I think we should keep our draft picks and look into other avenues. We need a young receiver to grow with Flacco and if we are looking to Boldin to be the short time solution I feel like we should go after someone remaining in the free agency market or do everythign in our power to trade a third or forth rounder for Chad Ochocinco.
by ryantz on Apr 17, 2009 4:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree here
Bring Chad here.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 17, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other WR
Each WR has a problem…
1)Marvin is old and wants more money than he is worth
2) Holt does not fit under the salary cap for us. If he did, i would 100% agree with you that we should get him instead of giving up a 1st rounder for boldin. But we dont currently have room to pay him.
3) Chad Ocho Cinco- Bungles and Brownie will not trade in the division. So forget about him and Braylon in purple. Unless we can get some one to trade for him, and then pass him on to us.
by Rayisyourdaddy on Apr 17, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But we have Mason
Will Chad accept to use another number????
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by JORGE NITALES on Apr 18, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chad
Every player has a price and I feel much of the NFL would not be willing to risk much on Chad the way we would. Anything is possible in the NFL. It has been reported that Ozzie is talking with eight other teams. We have no idea what teams he is talking with or what that entails. We can only wait and see. I trust Ozzie to make the correct decision in how he handles this next week before and up to the draft.
by ryantz on Apr 17, 2009 5:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
PROMOTED!
Ray, if you could re-edit, highlight your links and update the date and time of post, I’d appreciate it.
This is a worthwhile Front Page story and although the chances are slim in my opinion, we all can sit back and wonder what it might be like to have one of the top WR’s in the league split out wide from Flacco and wonder how much he will help the rest of our offense, just by running down the field, regardless if Joe throws it to him. Imagine the attention he’ll draw?
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 18, 2009 9:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I say no
just cause of his age. He wants a lot of front end money, and the Cards want the picks…I say no.
"When they get drafted by the Baltimore Ravens, we expect them to play like that. Are we surprised? No."
by UMBC Oriole fan on Apr 18, 2009 10:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
DO IT!
1st rd pick n todd heap, id say do it and use the 2nd rd to draft a wr that falls down the board and although i like mason i wouldnt resign him, use the 3rd to get a TE, then let ozzie work magic the rest of the draft
by bam_88 on Apr 18, 2009 1:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cards don't want or need Heap.
We’d part ways w/ Heap after this year if we got Boldin, as we’d need to drop salary to have cap space to sign Boldin to a long term deal and retain Suggs and Ngata.
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 18, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's more than a 1st rounder
It’s a 1st, a 3rd, and having to let someone else go at some point due to salary cap problems.
by tvon on Apr 18, 2009 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Whta about a RB
Maybe they accept a 2nd and McGahee…
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by JORGE NITALES on Apr 18, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You would give up a 1st rounder and 3rd rounder
along with possibly another pick and give Boldin, a player approaching 30, a new deal? I’ll take my chances with a rookie who could develop into something special.
by E-ROC on Apr 18, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But Bolding helps us win NOW
Some of these guys we have arent gonna be around in 2-3 years, one of which is Ray. I would take Boldin in his prime for 2-3 more years to get us a Superbowl and work on drafting a WR out of the 1st round in the next 2 drafts. BUT, I am all for developing one of these 1st round guys if it happens. Would not complain at all if Boldin does not come here.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 18, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude is a physical reciever, with plenty of YAC yardage. I like how his style of play would fit in the harder hitting AFC, particularly against the steelers.
by ello on Apr 18, 2009 3:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
a couple of thoughts...
1.) Would we have to sign Boldin to an extension immediately? I understand the problem with the salary cap. Could we trade for Boldin and make a decision about an extension later? I think we’re in a win-now situation and could afford to trade him and just let him walk.
2.) Is there anyway to get rid of McGahee for cap space? I hear alot of people talking about trading Heap to free up cap space, but I think McGahee would be the better one to dump. At this point he’s the Ravens 3rd RB and their highest paid player. I know it might be hard to trade him, but at this point I’d almost give him away.
by edsachs1 on Apr 18, 2009 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
McGahee would have to go as well
but between the other salaries coming off the books, Willis would probably stay another year. Boldin would need and deserve a new deal and we’d be crazy not to sign him.
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 18, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
McGahee
There are rumors that Arizona is interested in Willis, they have a need at RB, not sure what we would have to give up with him. But i wouldnt mind clearing his salary and giving ray rice more run. There are good RB in this draft who will slip due to lack of need. Is his value a 2nd rounder? could we give up him and a 2nd rounder? or him, a 2nd and a 4th?
Hard to gauge his value at this point…
by Rayisyourdaddy on Apr 18, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think willis is going anywhere
I know he had a down year, but he was injuried for most of it. We all seen what he could do in 07-08, now let him come into this year and prove that he is back to form. I’m ready to see a 1500 yard 12-14 TD season from him.
FEAR THE NEVERMORE DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
by Benji5203 on Apr 18, 2009 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cardinals dont want Willis right now
They much rather have a 1st round pick then a RB who has not played up to the hype. It has pretty much been said that a 1st round pick HAS to be in the deal.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 19, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Willis and a 1st
I’d do that deal. Clear cap space by dealing Willis and get out from under his contract which he has not lived up to. Use that money to reup Boldin. Rice, McClain and rookie can carry the load at RB. Also, this way we get to keep our 3rd, which will at least give us 5 picks to work with.
by DT711 on Apr 20, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cards don't want a Willis-type
too old, questionable health AND attitude. They’ll gladly take Beanie Wells if available or even Georgia’s Moreno. They just don’t want our trash, much less at $6 million/year!
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 20, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe the McGahee hatred!
It’s not just you, Rexx. I’ve heard this hundreds of times. Did everyone forget the 2007 season? He WAS our entire offense that year! Last year, he had a bad season (mostly due to injuries), and now everyone wants to throw him off the team. Why? Because he didn’t show up for voluntary workouts? So what! They are voluntary! Because he performed badly? He was injured and was still one of our leading rushers! Dawan Landry and Kelly Gregg didn’t contribute at all last season. Why are we welcoming them back? Let’s give them the Willis treatment to be fair. Get that trash off the team!
I’m sorry if I sound irritated, but I was really annoyed by Buffalo fans when we got McGahee. They were treated him unfairly and gave him the Philly fan’s McNabb treatment. Unfortunately, this attitude has been contracted by Baltimore fans. It won’t be long before we’re cursing L.J. Smith too. I just thought that we were better than that.
by BAL_Hawk on Apr 21, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, I lived just east of Buffalo (horrible, horrible town) for about five years, just as McGahee was overtaking Travis “Can’t Stay on my Feet” Henry, and I can tell you that there was no unfair treatment. Buffalo wasted a first round pick on a seriously injured college freshman in the hopes that he’d return to form, and eventually gave him the #1 RB slot. In return, they got an under-performing athlete that trash-talked his meal ticket town. They happily shipped him off to us. As you say, he was our offense in a year in which Medicare McNaire couldn’t hold onto the ball or pass more than 10 yards to save his life. That makes McGahee the smartest kid on the short bus. Congratulations, Willis.
Fast forward to last year. All of a sudden, McGahee has some competetion. What do we get? Lots of whining. Underproduction. Who is our lead rusher? A full back. And where is McGahee? Whining to the local media. You may or may not have seen some of my prior posts about said whining months ago. So, I’m sorry if I sound irritated, but this guy deserves it. We have depth at RB with McClain and Rice, and I feel like we’d be just fine without the UM whiner. Also, Dawan Landry and Kelly Gregg never went mouthing off to the media; that’s why you don’t see anybody around here anxious to give them the boot.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
by Ampallang on Apr 21, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your facts are wrong.
McGahee rushed for 1128 yards and 13 touchdowns in his first season as a starter in Buffalo. Those are excellent numbers, and the Bills rode McGahee to a 9-7 record. He gave us the same performance in the 2007 season, rushing for 1207 yards and 7 touchdowns.
McGahee never trash-talked to anyone. He made a comment about how boring it was to live in Buffalo, and the fans got their feelings hurt. That was all he said. I would challenge you to find other trash-talking quotes from McGahee. You won’t find them. I would also challenge you to find coaches or players that have criticized McGahee. If you can find them, please give me the quotes. The fact is… you won’t find any. All of this negative press surrounding McGahee has been generated by the press and fans who got their feelings hurt.
I’m serious about finding me quotes. You called McGahee a whiner MANY times. I challenge you to find quotes to back it up.
by BAL_Hawk on Apr 21, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Completely agree
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by JORGE NITALES on Apr 22, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get comfortable, BAL_Hawk, because this may take a while. You’ve asked for quotes about things that happened years ago, and I’ve done my best to accommodate that. I think the best way to organize this will be by topic. Also, after waxing narcissistic for a sufficient number of words, the formatting (bolding and breaks between quotations) gets all wonky, so try to bear with me.
Your First Post
First, a recap. In your original post, you characterized McGahee as “our entire offense.” Since you didn’t respond to my rebuttal, I’ll have to assume that my point stands. You compared McGahee to Landry and Gregg, to which I countered that they didn’t whine; relevant quotes are forthcoming. You said he didn’t attend voluntary workouts. This is a particular thorn in our collective sides because he’s a repeat offender. It was actually the second time he’s skipped voluntary workouts while a new offense was being put into place. Again, more on this later. Now on to the meat of the subject.
McGahee’s Performance in Buffalo
You are correct about McGahee’s first year as a starter (2004). 1100 yards and 13 TD’s is great. I notice that you didn’t mention the subsequent years, though. In 2005, he again broke the 1000 yard barrier, but his yards per carry fell below 4.0 and he posted only five touchdowns. His next season, in which he missed two games due to injury, was equally disappointing with him running under 1000 yards and getting only a half-dozen touchdowns. I’d also like to point out that he actually did not give us the same production in 2007 as his performance in 2004; there’s a minus six touchdown differential!
McGahee’s “Trash-talk”
Let’s take a quick look at what McGahee actually said.
"Coming from Miami, I was used to partying, going out, just having something to do every night. Restaurants, whatever. Going to Buffalo, it was like hitting a brick wall. Like, ‘Damn!’ Can’t go out, can’t do nothing. There’s an Applebee’s, a TGI Friday’s, and they just got a Dave & Busters. They got that, and I’m like, ‘What the?’ And, you know, the women …
"You see, when I was in college that’s what I used to thrive off of," the 25-year-old says. "The better you do, the more fame you get. So you know, it was like, I was used to that. And then you get to Buffalo and no matter how you do, it’s the same. It’s no big city. You know what I did every day? I came home and played video games."
The most reliable source I could find for this was http://www.brendanloy.com/wp/2007/03/willis-mcgahee-doesnt-like-buffalo-and-the-feeling-is-mutual.html
The link to the original source at the Baltimore Sun was unavailable; however, the sheer number of times I’ve seen that exact quote repeated all over the Internet leaves me pretty confident in its authenticity.
As I said previously, I have a bit of personal experience with Buffalo. Please excuse the caps, BUT THE BARS DON’T CLOSE UNTIL 4AM!!! Buffalo has plenty of flaws, but the night life really isn’t one of them. When you get more cloud and snow cover than 99% of the rest of the continental United States, you develop a propensity for drinking. A guy with that kind of money and time on his hands should have easily found something to do. Worst case scenario, if he’s looking for something a little more up-scale, Toronto is a day-trip away, which brings me to my next point.
“They should just bring the Buffalo Bills to Toronto. Case closed.”
http://www.canada.com/topics/sports/story.html?id=1d29b2c1-b6bb-4426-8bbe-38a4f73962c7&k=98190
Originally from an interview with Penthouse magazine.
To put this into context, Buffalonians have an inferiority complex with their Northern neighbors. That kind of comment hits close to home, especially with a fan base so dedicated to their team. You said they treated McGahee unfairly, but I believe that he gave them every reason to hate him. He denigrated their night life and their women, and basically said that they were less deserving of their franchise than a rival city. What if McGahee came out tomorrow and said that Baltimore’s night life was non-existent, its women were fugly, and suggested that the franchise just move on out to Ohio? Combine that with his declining performance on the field. How much does it really take before the hatred is valid? Please let us all know.
Coaches Criticizing McGaheeThis is, admittedly, a tall order. Players, let alone coaches, don’t really criticize other players publicly all that often, so when it actually does happen, it tends to be kind of a big deal. Other than a lot hearsay, the following is pretty much all I could find.
“Willis literally didn’t know what to do on the plays,” a source said. "After the play was called, we’d have another coach signaling to Willis what to do because he didn’t know. He’d miss blocks [in pass protection] a few times, not because he was beat, but because he didn’t know what he was doing.
“He just doesn’t study. … His teammates noticed it, and it affected how they viewed him in the locker room.”
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-combinenotes022407&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
It looks pretty damning to me, BAL_Hawk. I said earlier that I’d be bringing this up again. This was after McGahee skipping the voluntary off-season workouts after they had put in a new offense under a new coaching staff. Sound familiar? It should, because it’s what happened here in Baltimore this past season. McGahee skips workouts designed to teach a new offense, then his production slips from the previous year. Only this time around, he actually had some competition in the backfield. There will be more later on his reaction to this turn of events.
McGahee WhiningYou’ve challenged me to find quotes of McGahee whining. Ask, and ye shall receive.
McGahee said he “tried to be someone else’s running back this year, and it didn’t work out.”
“I’m just going to go out there and play for me. I can’t play for nobody else but me.”
“Still, it’s not like where I want to be at. I’m used to competing, but with the injuries and whatnot holding me back, I look at it as a loss.” … “See, I’m talking about my season, I’m not talking about the team’s season,” McGahee said. “I’m talking about my season as an individual. That’s what I’m meaning: My season is over with.”
http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2009/1/2/707034/mcgahee-running-his-mouth
It’s apparently impossible to find any articles older than several weeks on the Baltimore Sun website, as the two sources I’ve quoted in that Fan Post are broken links. Nobody in that thread, including a hostile Dolphins fan, called me out for making up shit, so you’ll just have to take my word for it. For the sake of brevity (ironic this far into my post, I know), I’ll let you browse that Fan Post for the salient points. I recommend the actual Fan Post itself, as well as my second post from the bottom, although you are free to peruse all of my witty banter there and elsewhere. In Buffalo, McGahee managed to keep his big mouth out of the media for the most part, so I’ll just leave you with some general impressions of his time there.
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Willis McGahee (325/1247/5 rushing and 28/178/0 receiving last season) scored only 1 TD during his final 10 contests last year. He finished 2005 held to under 100 yards rushing per game in 7 straight games (until a 22/113/0 rushing and 2/22/0 receiving effort during the meaningless week 17 game vs. the Jets, which had no fantasy significance for most of his owners). How did he respond to his dismal second half? Why, he agitated for a renegotiated contract and then held out of non-mandatory OTAs during the offseason, of course – while the Bills worked on installing the new offense with their new coaching staff (headed by Dick Jauron).
http://subscribers.footballguys.com/2006/06faceoff-McGaWi00.php
At that point, his contract was incentive-based. With his play falling off, it’s no wonder he was trying to get a renegotiated contract.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Asked if McGahee had requested a trade, Jauron replied: “That’s a good question for you to ask him.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2791831
Sounds like Dick Jauron was repressing some aggressive emotions about the topic.
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Jauron said McGahee indicated to him that he’s working out in Miami, staying in shape and studying the new playbook but a specific reason for not attending this week’s OTA wasn’t provided.
The Bills were given no notice that McGahee would be appearing on the NFL Network for three days this week until late Tuesday.
Veteran Joe Burns said the new offense under coordinator Steve Fairchild is loaded with new terminology and McGahee is missing valuable time.
“Because it’s a new offense, I’d say so,” Burns said. "If it were the same offense as last year, I’d say he’d be fine, but anytime you can get together as a team it’s a benefit.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bills/2006-05-30-mcgahee-absence_x.htm
And there’s your quote by a player. It’s very politically stated.
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Buffalo News columnist Bob DiCesare wrote that removing McGahee had “purged the rot” from the Bills’ locker room.
http://www.ravens24x7.com/column_view.php?cid=33&id=1871&view=archive
Also mentioned there is the website www.willisistrash.com, which is, unfortunately, not up and running anymore.
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Whelp, that’s about all I have. You wanted quotes, and you got them. A coach saying in no uncertain terms that McGahee’s poor work ethic was hurting his performance, as well as that of the team (via missed blocking assignments). An entire city with plenty of reason not to like this guy. Unreliable performance from year to year. Self-centered whining just before our first playoff game, in spite of backing from the coaches and several good games up to that point (you said that he “was still one of our leading rushers!”) I believe that I’ve met your challenge, and I eagerly await your response.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
by Ampallang on Apr 23, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow +1
Amp!
This was such a great in depth response which had so many great points, that I’d love to have been able to post it as a Front PAge Story. Next time, do it as MaLoR says and make it a FanPost by itself and I’ll promote it. You certainly got your point across. However, if I do promote something like this, I can’t be responsible if Willis comes looking for you!
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 23, 2009 8:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Rexx. Ironically enough, though, I have some friends coming down from just east of Buffalo for my birthday, so it may be a day or two before I get the time to touch it up for its own Fan Post. It’ll make for decent post-draft filler, I think.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
by Ampallang on Apr 23, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there needs to be a hardcore cage match
Instead of chairs and tables to beat eachother, just use ignorant quotes about applebees and it snowing in Buffalo vs Crabcakes and the Bay are amazing.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 23, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've read ALL of those "quotes" and articles.
They aren’t any to surprise to me. In fact, this is exactly what I was talking about before. Don’t worry, Amp. I’ll be giving you a detailed response later. I will probably put this entire debate in a fan-post with my rebuttal.
I will be going right to my computer once I’m done working…
by BAL_Hawk on Apr 23, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it hard to believe that much of what I said was “what you were talking about.”
“He gave us the same performance in the 2007 season, rushing for 1207 yards and 7 touchdowns.”
With a 6 touchdown difference, I’d hardly call that “the same.”
“McGahee never trash-talked to anyone. He made a comment about how boring it was to live in Buffalo, and the fans got their feelings hurt. That was all he said.”
He trash-talked the entire city of Buffalo. He insinuated that half the population of that area (the fairer half) was somehow ugly or beneath him. I feel like I made it pretty obvious that Buffalo’s dislike of McGahee was justified to a degree, and that it wan’t fair to characterize that dislike as “unfair” or giving him the McNabb treatment.
“I would also challenge you to find coaches or players that have criticized McGahee. If you can find them, please give me the quotes. The fact is… you won’t find any.”
I did find some, actually. So, again, I’m not seeing how this is all what you were talking about before.
“All of this negative press surrounding McGahee has been generated by the press and fans who got their feelings hurt.”
I maintain that McGahee kicked himself in the balls. It’s no surprise that pissing off a city that put their trust in you, combined with lagging on-field performance, will get you negative press.
“I’m serious about finding me quotes. You called McGahee a whiner MANY times. I challenge you to find quotes to back it up.”
I linked an entire Fan Post to “back it up.” Unless you fully expected that I’d do that, I still don’t see “what [you] were talking about before.”
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
by Ampallang on Apr 23, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People dont understand what he talks about when he opens his mouth
He did not whine, or complain, or any of that bullshit. He even stated that he would do anything to help this team win and step up when his number is called. Now I know Ampallang and Rexx will come back and say “Yea well he whined, NFW he goes along with being on the field when asked” Some people are too caught up in what he said about shitty Buffalo.
He loves being here, he loves being a Raven, and will do anything to win. Leave him alone. He plays physical and got hurt cause of it. Give him a break, he is a pro bowl player. Jesus!!!!!!!!!!
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 21, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Willis
and will do anything to win
Except go to off season workouts, or come to camp in shape, or make an extra effort to learn the playbook…
by DT711 on Apr 23, 2009 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He still can ball, though
When given the workload, he makes the plays. When used sparingly, he just doesn’t get into it. But give him the rock 20+ times, game, he’ll usually get you a century or more of yards.
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 23, 2009 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Off season workouts are not mandatory
So he does not have to go. Ray and Reed rarely ever go to off-season workouts, except this year the did. They are usually in Miami working out. Is it a problem with them?
I think 1878 rushing yards on 464 attempts in 2 years is very good. 4.0 yards a carry. Also getting 67 Receptions for 304 yards is not bad either. Totaling 15 touchdowns with all this over 2 years, only playing in 28 of the 36 games. Also considering that we are giving McClain and Rice a shot.
If Willis can get 16 carries a game, 3 receptions and 80 all purpose yards with a score, as these number work out to be that, then I will take that with the way we give McClain and Rice the ball. Where was it said that he did not learn the playbook? If someone in the BaltimoreSun stated that, I wont agree. I disregard all of the crap they try to write about.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 23, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a good comparison Malor
Ray and Reed have earned the right to not show up. Willis hasn’t even come close. I don’t agree with Amp, but I don’t think anyone can argue that he is self centered and has a big ego. So while I wouldn’t put him on TO’s diva level, i do consider him somewhat of a diva. I think without Ray and the other vet’s to kick his butt into line, he would be somewhat worse too!
by Rayisyourdaddy on Apr 23, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree in way
But there are other guys who definitely miss off season workouts and it does not necessarily affect their play. Just couldnt think of anyone else at the time.
McGahee is my favorite player on the team outside of Ray and Reed. “Too conventional for me to just say they are my favorite” I have been a UMiami fan forever and loved watching Willis in college. I just feel that people are interpreting what he said the wrong way. He may have an ego, but all these guys do. His has just been blown out of proportion because of a few thing he said about Buffalo. I mean, Buffalo man, come on. Its basically Canada.
Self Centered I disagree with. If he was so self centered, I think we would be seeing the same thing we saw with McAlister, being cut. Harbaugh is all about the team, and CMac wasnt, so he is gone. If McGahee was so self centered and didnt care about the team, I dont think he is on the Ravens right now. I also think we would have heard something said from the Ravens rather then BaltimoreSun reporters.
I cant wait to hear what T.O has to say about Buffalo to.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 23, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your 3rd favorite player on the team?
Wow, you must really be feelin’ it for Willis. I think he’s a powerful runner and very good player. Certainly the best RB we have, lest people overrate both MCClain and Rice. But my third fave, or even 10th? NFW.
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 23, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was my favorite player to use in Madden 06
Maybe that’s why. I just love the way he moves with the ball. Most of you don’t but I do. Big fan of him at Miami and if that knee injury never happened, he may be a top 3 back in this league. But to be able to still run the ball like he can most of the time, it is very impressive.
Im not your normal fan, Rexx.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 23, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mr MaLoR, it’s misleading to say that they don’t want to cut him because he hasn’t been cut yet. As much as Harbaugh is all about the team, it all comes down to dollars and cents. From a Baltimore Sun live chat:
“Jamison Hensley: Shelley … Who knows about Willis. When I talked to Cam Cameron in training camp last year, he made a point to say Willis was a three-down back. But that couldn’t motivate him. The Ravens know they can’t count on him. They are counting the days before they can release him without getting a cap hit.”
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2009/04/test_3.html
It’s all about the cap hit. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if they cut or trade him now, certain bonuses totaling several million dollars from his contract are accelerated to this year’s cap. I know Harbaugh and co. are willing to make sacrifices for the team, but not with that kind of price tag.
Also, I think you may have missed my point about him missing voluntary practices. Both times he’s done it, it’s been when the franchise was installing a brand new offense, and his play in the subsequent season has fallen both times. I don’t care if you skip the voluntary stuff as long as you aren’t hurting the team, but that’s not how it played out with McGahee.
Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.
by Ampallang on Apr 23, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll just stop now
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 23, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MaLoR
If McGahee was so self centered and didnt care about the team, I dont think he is on the Ravens right now.
You know better then that. Even if they wanted to cut him, they couldn’t due to the cap hit. Wait until next off season…
Self Centered I disagree with
I think even Willis would admit he’s self centered…
by DT711 on Apr 23, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea yea yea
I get it. Im just not thinking straight today for some reason.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 23, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't hate willis
but agree the cards wouldn’t want him even if his cap number allowed it … it’s just that the life expectancy of an nfl rb is very short and willis is just about there now. they’ve already been there – done that with edge.
he can still be a productive raven next year (heard he is planning to attend all the voluntary mini-camps) and he has his pride and something to prove … so i won’t rule out a big year from willis.
by Fandemonium on Apr 21, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Cap Can be Cleared
I agree 110% with a 1st + Willis for Boldin, but it appears the rules and McGahee’s deal kind of screws us…
Wish there was a way to work around the immediate cap hit.
I am a little surprised Suggs name has not come up unless Ozzie has deemed T-Sizzle “Untouchable”
by vlad755 on Apr 21, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just saw this bad news courtesy of the arizona republic for those wishing willis mcgahee can be included in a trade for boldin.
“In a trade, the unprorated portion of a player’s signing bonus is accelerated on his old team’s salary cap. All of that money must be accounted for in 2009. (In previous years, it could be spread over two years. Not this year.)
In McGahee’s case, that means an acceleration of about $11.5 million, according to the salary figures I have. McGahee is signed through 2013 and is due to make $620,000 in salary this year. Subtract that and the Ravens are still looking at a cap hit of $11 million to trade McGahee. And that doesn’t count what it might take to sign Boldin to an extension."
sorry for repeating from another post but the topic is addressed here as well
by Fandemonium on Apr 21, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
excellent post
really good post. agree totally. the price is high, but in reality it is worth it. boldin makes mason and clayton better then they are right now, because he draws the top coverage. if heap is the price, trade him. there are a number of pass catching TE in the draft that can be had below round one.
do it. do it now, and don’t look back.
by ppdoc on Apr 18, 2009 11:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Braylon Edwards?
Maybe? But IMO Mason could have an even better season then last year If he stays healthy, He did play very well with an injury. Also, Clayton stepped up last year in the second half of the season, Remember that one handed catch? I could see Mason and Clayton doing very well, And draft a young receiver at 26 and he could be at least a better #3 than Williams. Either way, Our offense would be better with a healthy Mason and Willis. And Ozzie made our defense better this off-season. So I don’t see why we couldn’t win a superbowl this year? I say no trades for a pricey Boldin.
by B-MoreFanatic on Apr 19, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cards probably don't want one of our players
because it would be someone we would want to get rid of for non-performance and/or cap issues. Sirius NFL Radio mentioned Todd Heap, but Arizona already has a decent TE.
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 21, 2009 6:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Heap and our first round pick for Boldin
Thats my guess if its gonna happen. Mark that down.
If Arizona likes heap, its done
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 21, 2009 6:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd do that trade
and we can just survive at TE with LJ and Quinn plus draft Cornelius Ingram with our second or third round pick! Works for me!
Rexx
by Rexx on Apr 22, 2009 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Ingrum
If we could take him in the 2nd, that would be amazing! Reminds me of Bubba Franks back when he was good on GB.
You have to hate losing more than you love winning.
by Mr MaLoR on Apr 22, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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