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Flacco Critics: Sing a New Song!

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It's come from everybody. The experts. The amateurs. The opponents.

They all think Joe Flacco is overrated.

They claim that the reason for his success is great defense and a great backfield he has behind him.

But they are definitely wrong. Why? Has Flacco gotten help from his defense and running backs? No doubt. However, it's not to say he hasn't played well. It's ridiculous to compare him to quarterbacks like Matt Cassel or Matt Ryan, considering both their teams have speedy, playmaking receivers—something the Ravens don't have.

Derrick Mason, 5'10", is the Ravens No. 1 receiver while Mark Clayton, also 5'10", is the No. 2. I'm not going to sit here and say he didn't benefit from a defense that includes Ray Lewis and Ed Reed. And I'm not going to sit here and say he hasn't benefited from All-Pro fullback Le'Ron McClain in the backfield.

But to say Flacco hasn't played well himself? That's just beyond belief to me. Is Flacco the next Peyton Manning? Of course not! Flacco projects more like Ben Roethlisberger, getting help from a tremendous defense and not having to do as much as most quarterbacks would.

And while the critics of Flacco say he hasn't played well, they inconveniently leave out the fact that in his last 11 games of the season, he threw 13 touchdown passes, just five interceptions, was 9-2 as the starter and led the offense to 25.3 points a game during that stretch.

Did Flacco play well in every one of those games? No. He played well in every game except two. I'm not going to claim that Flacco needs to pack his bags for Canton, but saying he's overrated is borderline insane.

First of all, no one really claims Flacco is among the elite quarterbacks in the National Football League. And Flacco critics never look beyond the lines. They look at this stat: 14 TD's, 12 INT's. Decent for a rookie.

So what kind of opinion does that lead to: Flacco is an overrated quarterback, Ravens are overachievers, and the reason Baltimore wins is defense and power running. I don't blame them. They aren't bad people, they haven't looked into it enough.

Again, Flacco threw 13 touchdowns and five interceptions his last 11 games and few of those interceptions were deserved. His two interceptions against the Giants were misjudged and tipped, respectively.

While he was inaccurate against Pittsburgh in a 13-9 Week 15 loss, one of the interceptions was tipped and the second pick was plainly out of desperation. The opposing opinions have come from writers I respect. Bryn Swartz and Sayre Bedinger.

But if you're going to blame him for not doing well against the No. 1 Steelers defense, then you're crazy. You could argue defense kept the Ravens in the game all three contests against Pittsburgh, but what about the Monday night melee in Week Four? Flacco threw for 192 yards and one touchdown pass—in his first road start—against Pittsburgh!

If Flacco had a tall, speedy receiver, he could have put up great numbers. Oh wait: In the last 11 games, he did! The same argument is applied to Ben Roethlisberger. He's overrated because he gets much help from defense.

Do Big Ben and Joe Cool get help from their defenses? Yes. But do both quarterbacks play well? Absolutely. I'm just tired of hearing the same song week-after-week. Flacco puts up a good game, as does Big Ben, and they both get snubbed because they don't do it themselves.

The same argument could be used for Donovan McNabb, whose Eagles team ranked fourth in total defense. It could also be used for Peyton Manning, whose Colts finished seventh. It could be used for many. Matt Ryan, who was helped tremendously by Michael Turner, Matt Cassel, whose Patriots finished sixth in rushing offense and many others. But all of those quarterbacks are Pro Bowl caliber and in Manning and McNabb's case, Hall of Fame caliber.

NFL fans, you need to sing a different song. Am I trying to say Flacco deserves to be in the same sentence as Dan Marino? Course not. But he does deserve to be in the same sentence as most NFL quarterbacks. Heck, he's dueled with most of them. And more often than not, he's come out on top.

That brings us to the playoff excuse. Ahh, Flacco critics often point to the fact that in the postseason, Flacco got nothing done. Yes, he posted an abysmal 48.5 completion percentage. Yes, he threw one touchdown pass and three interceptions. But think about this: was Flacco ASKED to lead the Ravens to Tampa for the Super Bowl? Was Flacco EXPECTED to lead the Ravens himself?

No, but he did manage the game quite well, and let me make a list of the amount of times he fumbled. OK, I'm done. If the Ravens can get a tall, speedy, playmaking receiver in the draft, through free agency or a trade, Flacco can be a hell of a quarterback next season.

And for anyone who actually watched the playoffs, you'd know he wasn't horrible in any of the games. Against Miami, in a 27-9 win, he wasn't asked to make plays. In fact, he was asked to manage the game—and that he did. He was 9-for-23 with 132 yards. His first playoff pass: a 17-yard completion. He ran for a five-yard touchdown. And for those who watched it, you'd know most of Flacco's incomplete passes were executed reads but throws that were forced out of bounds.

In the Tennessee game, no one can deny he was impressive. Let's compare. Week Five vs. Tennessee at home, 13-10 loss: 18-for-27, 153 yards, 2 INT's. He showed tendencies of a young quarterback. Throwing across his body. Rattled against an elite Tennessee D.

In Week 19 against Tennessee in Nashville, he was 11-for-22 with 163 yards, one touchdown and no interceptions. Is 11-for-22 impressive? No. Was the big pass to Todd Heap a delay of game? Yes. But seriously, how did a delay of game affect the outcome of the pass? Regardless, Flacco made the pass right through the hands of Chris Hope and in between Pro Bowlers Michael Griffin and Cortland Finnegan. So keep talking.

That brings us to the ever-so-dreadful Pittsburgh game in the AFC Championship. Flacco was poor. 141 yards, three interceptions, one of which pinned on Flacco.

Let's see. First interception: DeShea Townsend. This was just an example of an elite corner stepping up and making a play. Not a poor read, not a poor throw. The second interception was definitely another example of a great player, Troy Polamalu, making a play. Polamalu jumped the route, read Flacco's eyes perfectly and picked it off for a touchdown. Not a poor read, not a poor throw. A great play by a great safety.

The next play was a ball tipped—something that hurt Flacco all year. A pass that would have been an eight yard completion to Ray Rice was bobbled and tipped—right into the hands of Steelers defensive back Tyrone Carter. See, not Flacco's fault!

I respect your opinions, sports fans, but quite frankly, sing a different song; Flacco proved you wrong.

The opinions posted here are those of the administrator of this blog and his loyal readers. They are in no way official comments from the team, and should not be misconstued as such, even though he thinks he could do just as well or even a better job!

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I've been a Flacco critic

but you’re right, he has been decent, particularly in non-Steelers games late in the year. The temptation is to say he’s either great or a bust, but right now he’s neither. He’s not the next Peyton Manning or Ben Roethlisberger – he’s his own thing and how he progresses from here will determine if he’s a bust, a capable starter, or a HOFer. For a somewhat unpolished QB from a small school who started every game as a rookie, he played pretty well, but he was put in favorable situations by his teammates and coaching staff.

It’s hard to evaluate him, boom OR bust, when he essentially hit par for the course this year. We’ll all get a much better feel for him over the next two years. Ravens fans should avoid having irrational expectations for him – everyone has a setback or two at some point – and the rest of us should keep our “overrated” comments to a minimum. To be honest, I thought Tom Brady was overrated until 2004.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Feb 24, 2009 10:19 PM EST reply actions  

And I am sure that a lot of people thought Ben was in this very same situation his rookie year

Ben went to the AFC Championship his rookie year as well, behind a great freaking defense and a power running back in Jerome Bettis. Is Ben overrated now, HELL NO!

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 24, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Hope Joe can follow

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 25, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I should add

that you guys should be grateful for whatever combo of Harbaugh/Cameron/Jackson had the foresight to ease him into his role as a day one starter. If you threw him to the dogs right away, he’d end up like Alex Smith. Putting him in situations where he’s challenged but can still succeed can teach him how to be an NFL QB while not destroying his confidence or overwhelming him.

We can’t be sure how he’ll react to calculus and differential equations when he gets there, but he’s doing pretty well with arithmetic and algebra for now. Trig is up next…

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Feb 25, 2009 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Good analogy bro

I like that. He did succeed in those areas with our WR’s being the professor who talks like Ben Stein and puts everyone to sleep. We need that explosive guy and Flacco will be showing us how to do Astro Physics!

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 25, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps the situation helped him

in that he never mentally prepared himself to be the starter from Day One, but the loss of Boller to injury and Smith to illness had him focus on preparing to start rather than have time to let it sink in and wreck havoc on his confidence.

Rexx

by Rexx on Feb 25, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

haha

“The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act, which raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression”

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Feb 25, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow

Thanks for the history lesson….I think?

Rexx

by Rexx on Feb 25, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Amazing Write Up!

Rexx, please promote this. Wow, that was a great read.

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 24, 2009 10:38 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks Rex and Mr MaLoR

Hey thanks guys I’m an aspiring sports writer. Here’s my profile on B/R. When I write Ravens or O’s or Terps, I’ll be sure to post it here.

Here’s my profile:

http://bleacherreport.com/users/32043-Isaac

by Isaac263 on Feb 25, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I know the Ravens, but I’m unfamiliar with these “O’s” or “Terps.”

Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.

by Ampallang on Feb 25, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

O's and Terps?

“Barnstorming” teams, sort of like the Harlem Globetrotters, I think.

Rexx

by Rexx on Feb 26, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

My Take

1. Flacco had 1 proven receiver in Mason who played with one arm. I’m sure Joe altered his game to put the ball in a managable place for Mason. That may have altered passes.

2. What great young backfield? McGahee played hurt every other game. A FB started at RB and Rice never got going and went out hurt. We watched McGahee peal himself of the turf in every Pitt. game.

3. His blind side was protected by an aged Willie Anderson and the line was very young.

4. He had a rookie coach and first year OC while being a rookie himself.

5. Our D benefited from Joe playing comeback in Cleveland, Pitt, and Tenn. I seem to remember the D letting him down late in the 4th a few times after getting them the lead.

6. He survived a very poor TE season.

7. His mentor QB’s were Boller and 2nd year Smith. He didn’t study under anyone.
 
8. He played against the best of the best 5 TIMES and had us in a position to win all of them (2 D meltdowns in the fourth cost us). He beat the Cowboys in Texas on a star studded night. He had to face Manning in Indy. He beat Pennington in Miami twice. He also didn’t stumble against poor teams by taking care of the ball and allowing the D to smash them.

We treated Joe like a vet and I can say out of all things-he didn’t deserve that.

by raven on Feb 24, 2009 11:32 PM EST reply actions  

Great points as well

People just look at the Raven name and our history at QB. They just cannot get over that we have not had a guy like Joe in our 13 year history.

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 25, 2009 8:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Good point

1. Good points
2. What great young backfield? We were 3rd in run offense.
3. True.
4. True.
5. True.
6. True
7. Very, very true.
8. Very true.

by Isaac263 on Feb 25, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I am always amazed

how O’Neal gets left out or forgotten. Seriously does this guy wear camo or something. Just look at who he has blocked for over the seemingly 50 or so years he has been in the league. Almost every single one of his running backs have looked like sure Hall of Famers until Lorenzo gets traded. I think his highlight of the year was the Dallas game on the last touchdown run when he lifts and proceeds to plant a Linebacker almost 1/2 his age three feet into the ground.

"When they get drafted by the Baltimore Ravens, we expect them to play like that. Are we surprised? No."

by UMBC Oriole fan on Feb 25, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Neal

is a FA and is reportedly not on the list to be re-signed. I don’t get that one. They say the TE position wil be upgraded so a FB is not needed. when did that become the norm?

Rexx

by Rexx on Feb 26, 2009 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Neal has made a career

of making teams wish they had signed him. I don’t know how the hell he does it at his age…but the man is a beast. Him in his pads and me in my truck, head on…I give it to O’Neal.

"When they get drafted by the Baltimore Ravens, we expect them to play like that. Are we surprised? No."

by UMBC Oriole fan on Feb 26, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I second that

He is a freaking 18 wheeler!

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 26, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

We might have been third in total run yardage, but we definitely weren’t up there in yards per carry. We just ran the ball more times than (just about?) anybody else. Outside of the Dallas game, I rarely remember thinking, “Man, our running game is the shit!” As usual, I’d like to take this occasion to blame McGahee for that. And the economy.

Water covers 2/3 of the Earth's surface. Ed Reed covers the rest.

by Ampallang on Feb 25, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Your running game was actually pretty similar to the Pittsburgh runnning game that got so much credit in Ben’s rookie year:

2008 Balt: 592 for 2376, 4.0 ypc
2004 Pit: 618 for 2464, 4.0 ypc

What those stats don’t show is that you’re getting at least 3 yards on just about every play, so you can depend on it to get 3rd and short. Unlike, say, Willie Parker’s line of 0, 2, 1, -3, -1, 35, -1, 5, 2

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Feb 26, 2009 8:52 AM EST up reply actions  

And we scored most of our TD's from the run.

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 26, 2009 8:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I think a lot of that...

was not to push Flacco into an easy situation to mess up. They really didn’t allow him to open up on passing until the mid season point…and by then we were on a playoff run so they clamped down on him again. Look at the Cincy Game, where a shitty secondary..(correction: a shitty organization from top to bottom) and no pressure allowed Flacco to just go All Madden. The kid just needs time to mature and weapons around him…of course every QB in league needs that I guess…

"When they get drafted by the Baltimore Ravens, we expect them to play like that. Are we surprised? No."

by UMBC Oriole fan on Feb 26, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

In this league

give any QB time to throw in the pocket and he’ll pick you apart. Flacco knew his receivers would get open at some point and had the presence of mind (which Boller never had) to be patient and wait. Sometimes that led to sacks but he learned to throw the ball away as the year went on, something he didn’t know earlier in the season (see Titans regular season loss).

Rexx

by Rexx on Feb 26, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

A great defense

and a strong running attack has made a lot of NFL QB’s look good. How good do you think Big Ben would have been his first two years w/o the Bus lining up behind him? So many “good” NFL QB’s would never get the accolades w/o a decent team in front of them and ont he other side of the ball. It’s a team game, guys and the other 10 guys on the field make the one look good, or bad!

Rexx

by Rexx on Feb 25, 2009 11:08 AM EST reply actions  

The cure for male pattern baldness

Was found in Joe Flacco’s Eye Brow.

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 25, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Big Ben Ricky Bobby is done by 28 when his triple sow cow double lutz moves ultimately get him smeared. “Dear 5 pound baby Jesus in golden diapers let me survive another year in the NFL”- BIg Ben Ricky Bobby.

by raven on Feb 25, 2009 11:47 AM EST reply actions  

Big Ben v. Flacco

I find Flacco and Big Ben to be identical.

Let me explain.

1. Both have amazing defenses and as a result, neither Big Ben or Joe Cool have to do as much as guys like Ryan and Manning do to win.

2. Both have pretty good run games.

3. Both are very tough, big quarterbacks.

4. Both have middle-teir receiving cores.

5. Neither put up jawdropping numbers.

6. Both have great poise.

by Isaac263 on Feb 25, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Which Manning?

Eli had a great defense and RB. Peyton had a great o-line and opportunistic defense, along w/ great wideouts.

Rexx

by Rexx on Feb 25, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ll agree that they had/have similar situations, but if you’re saying Flac is going to follow in Ben’s footsteps, he has quite a bit of catching up to do. Ben’s overall numbers may not be that impressive, but his efficiency (e.g. a 98 QB rating as a rookie) has usually been top notch.

As I said above, that doesn’t mean Flacco won’t be as good or better at some point, it just means that the comparison to Roethlisberger’s rookie year may have limited relevance.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Feb 25, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

No not quite

I mean Peyton. But I think they have similar situations, and I think there is no reason to believe Flacco can’t win a ring if this defense and run game stays intact.

by Isaac263 on Feb 25, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Ben’s amazing and very few QB’s have or had his field vision and patience.

by raven on Feb 25, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

But even now

Flacco has a stronger and more accurate arm than Ben, just not the all important field vision and awareness that sets Ben apart from most. Damn him to hell for eternity!

Rexx

by Rexx on Feb 26, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Not to throw fire on the flame, as I do think Flacco will be a very good QB, BUT…

Only three QB’s in NFL history have recorded three or more games with a pefect QB rating…

Peyton Manning- 4
Kurt Warner- 3
Ben Roethlisberger-3

Also, Ben has more game winning drives than ANY quarterback since he came into the league in 2005. So to say he doesn’t have to do as much to Win as Matt Ryan or either of the Mannings seems like a misnomer.

I'll drink your Milkshake, I'll drink it up!

by Frank Mineo (DYMS) on Feb 25, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but...

in order to win a Sper Bowl, you don’t need to be a good QB; just good enough (see Trent Dilfer, circa 2001).

Rexx

by Rexx on Feb 25, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

hey Malor- you didn’t get your lunch money taken again today did you?

by raven on Feb 25, 2009 11:48 AM EST reply actions  

I have a diner plan......

They would need to take my student ID. Thank god I didnt have to pay court fees today, then what would I have done for Sunday Brunch?

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 25, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

From an Eagles fan

He was overrated. Some were saying he was the best Rookie QB ever, a top5 QB in the AFC. That’s overrated.

He is good. He was really impressive for a rookie. But at some point, I was getting mad at all this Flacco talk during the playoffs.

by bubqr on Feb 25, 2009 5:13 PM EST reply actions  

lol?

Where was your qb when we played you?

All I know is that Flacco wasn’t benched. Unlike someone…

by ihatethesteelers on Feb 25, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Throwing picks left and right

until fatty decided to sit him for a half. But remember, he was still trying to overcome the mind blowing notion that NFL regular season games can end in a tie…

"When they get drafted by the Baltimore Ravens, we expect them to play like that. Are we surprised? No."

by UMBC Oriole fan on Feb 26, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Yea cant blame him

I still dont believe McNabb. He has played in this league since 98’ or whatever and there has been a tie since then. Football is his job and you are supposed to know every aspect of your job, especially if you want to be as successful as McNabb has been. Him not knowing games can end in ties is like a server at a restaurant not knowing that tables might ask for dessert after dinner.

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 26, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Or shit...

McNabb could play a freaking season of Madden Football. Seriously, my illegitimate kid knows that there are ties in football and I ain’t taught him nothing. Well…disappointment in father figures…I guess you could say I taught him that…

"When they get drafted by the Baltimore Ravens, we expect them to play like that. Are we surprised? No."

by UMBC Oriole fan on Feb 26, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

eagles fan-

Flacco Flacco Flaccco Flacco Flacco Flacco tell me when to stop…..what was the score of the Flacco vs. Eagles game. McNabb had 100+ games on this rookie LOL.

by raven on Feb 26, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

That was not the opinion here in Baltimore

We thought he was definitely Rookie-of -the-Year material, but best rookie ever? Who was spewing that stuff? The reason you heard so much about him in the playoffs was that he was breaking rookie QB records each week. Remember, no rookie QB had ever won a playoff game, much less two.

Rexx

by Rexx on Feb 25, 2009 5:18 PM EST reply actions  

Remember, no rookie QB had ever won a playoff game, much less two.

Uh, I know a guy who won one…

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Feb 26, 2009 8:44 AM EST up reply actions  

He meant

No rookie QB has ever won a ROAD playoff game, then Flacco went on to win a 2nd ROAD playoff game. That is what he meant.

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 26, 2009 8:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, ok. I’m hearing you.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Feb 26, 2009 8:55 AM EST up reply actions  

What ever happened to

Chris Fo’umotomalafala? I probably just butchered his name.

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 26, 2009 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

We had Bettis and were thinking Amos Zereoue was going to be a Willie Parker type complement to him, so Fuamatu-Ma’afala, who had accumulated quite a few injuries, got released. He got picked up by the Jags, but never had a huge impact with them before retiring. He was a really physical runner, so it’s not a huge shock that he broke down at a younger age than most RB’s.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Feb 26, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions  

I remember him scoring the winning TD against Cleveless

That was an insane game. Damn, Amos Zereoue, what a long time ago that was. I heard that man could bench press like 500 pounds or something crazy like that. He was a monster at times. And now I remember Fuafotumafalafa on the Jags.

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 26, 2009 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Barry Foster?

I did not realize how crazy his career was until I looked up his stats. In 1992 he had 1690 yards on a league high 390 carries, with 11 TD’s. He never went over 851 yards and 216 carries again. Could have been a beast if not for injuries. Lucky for Pit, a dude named Jerome Bettis would arrive from the Rams, since they had drafted a better back, Lawrence Phillips, to replace him. That worked out well for St Louis.

by DT711 on Feb 26, 2009 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Isnt he in jail for cocaine now?

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 26, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

The Steelers have never understood the concept of pacing backs’ carries. Cowher killed Barry Foster in ‘92, tried to kill Bettis in ’97, then teamed up with Tomlin to kill poor little Willie Parker in ’06-’07. Last year, Tomlin said he’d “ride Willie until the wheels fell off”, as if it was a good idea. Well, they fell off.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Feb 26, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Came back when you guys needed him though.

Thats for damn sure.

You have to hate losing more than you love winning.

by Mr MaLoR on Feb 26, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Famous Amos

I went to WVU while Zereoue was there. My room mate was a phys-ed major and told me the same bench pressing info. His chest was as wide as he was tall.

Don D.

by hobbeslax on Feb 27, 2009 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

and what did that get him?

other than a chocolate chip cookie named after him!

Rexx

by Rexx on Feb 27, 2009 8:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Zereoue

A couple of years w/the Steelers and then I believe where most NFL players go to die….Oakland.

"When he gained control of the ball, the ball was breaking the plane and he fell into the field of play."--referee Walt Coleman
Quit squakin' my little bitter black birds.

by hobbeslax on Feb 28, 2009 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

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