Bring On The Browns
by Rexx on Oct 28, 2008 11:14 AM EDT
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PrintAfter winning their past two games in a row by an average margin of over 16 points, the Baltimore Ravens set their sights on Cleveland and a Browns team fresh off a rare road upset victory over the Jacksonville Jaguars. The Ravens are in second place in the AFC North with a 4-3 record, one game behind the division leading Steelers, who sit there at 5-2. The Browns, are one game behind the Ravens at 3-4 and a win at home will put them at .500 for the first time all season. However, the Ravens have already defeated the Browns 28-10 in game three earlier this season and are out to prove that was not a fluke. At the same time, despite their impressive 10-6 2007 season, the Browns are facing the same thoughts that last year was a fluke for them and a winning streak would go a long way to showing that they are fighting back to prove the pundits wrong.
The Browns last two games have been on the road, where they lost a close one to the Redskins 14-11, and won another close one in Jacksonville 23-17. Keeping both games close by playing tough defense should give them a boost of confidence as they now head home to the cozy (?) confines of their home field and their loyal, yet misguided fans, the Dawg Pound. The Browns' fans are trash talking, foul mouthed blind loyalists, who never miss an opportunity to not only trash their opponents, but their fans as well.
Hopefuly, for the Browns fans' sake, the players can back up their fans with a victory over the Ravens. If not, the Ravens fans wil have every right to make sure the Browns' fans call them, "Daddy," as that would be a series sweep this season. A split in the season series would only extend the arguments another year. It would be great to punk them in their crib and send them further down in the standings towards their Ohio brethren in the basement of the AFC North.
Not that it will come easy for the Ravens. Their 28-10 victory came as a surprise to the NFL, as the Browns were actually favored to win this game by the so-called experts. However, Browns QB Derek anderson looked nothing like the Pro Bowl caliber player of last year, and while the Browns have rallied for three victories, including impressive wins over the defending Super Bowl Champions NY Giants on MNF, he has still not regained his form from last year. The Ravens will again attempt to exploit this as they plan to continue their defensive dominance in stopping the run as they have done all season while not allowing a 100 yard rusher since the 2006 season, a span of well over 20 games. If they can put pressure on Anderson when he drops back to pass, hit and harass him throughout the game, they will be able to force the turnovers that this defense has feasted upon. If Cleveland's well respected offensive line is able to protect him, then he will have the time to pick apart the Ravens once again depleted secondary. Losing Samari Rolle to injury hurt the team, but the recent absence of Chris McAlister has been devastating, as it brings the nickel and dime backs into starting roles. While the loss of safety Dawan Landry has not hurt due to the impressive play of safety Jim Leonhard, who has performed very good on defense as well as Special Teams. However, it has seemed that the deep coverage has not been able to rotate to the weak side when needed to stop the big plays. This will need to improve to stop the connection between Anderson, Braylon Edwards and the other Cleveland threats.
As the week progresses, we will see more of a gameplan taking shape, based on the health of both teams as they prepare for what will be another battle in this great rivalry, in which the players as well as the fans seem to really despise each other.
Keep in touch here.
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Man, I used to like coming here, but your writing style just makes it impossible for any non-Ravens homer to get through.
This game is about one man and one man only: DA. He had a 22.9 rating in the first game, one that was lost in the first 5 minutes of the second half (not a “dominating” performance by the Ravens). If you could guarantee the Browns a 70 rating from the QB position, this would be a two score victory (as we’re superior at every other position except LB).
There are over a million reasons...
…why DA will continue to start. What is it, like 28 million reasons?
Rexx
Werent you the guy who was all on Anderson Jock? You were the one talking about how the ravens didnt have a nfl quilty QB and how cleveland was going to sweep us and we wont win more then 3-4 games. And now you want Quinn to be the starting QB? Dont you think thats a little hypocritacle?
FEAR THE NEVERMORE DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
I simply argued that QBs under 25 that have sustained success in this league over an entire season rarely are not quality starters. This was the correct assesment at the time, though I now believe DA is the exception.
I claimed the Ravens didn’t at present have a quality QB on their roster. That was true in June to anyone who knows anything about football. And of course the jury is not out on Flacco.
Show me where I predicted one damn thing about this season. You can’t.
???
How is DA gettining a 22.9 qb rating against us not dominating?? It is obviously showing that we were absolutely destroying your offense if your qb cant move the ball. If he was so bad against us, then why did he play so well against NYG? So if a game is over by the start of the second half, that means its not a dominating performance? So if we would have had the game come down to a 2 minute drive by flacco to get us a field goal to win by 3, is that a dominating performance??? NO, thats a close game, a dominating performance was our defense laying the hammer down on your offense, making “DA” look like the reason why WE got rid of him, and had a fullback who had 13 carries the previous season get 2 tds on you. That seems pretty dominating to me bud.
Jamal rushed 12 times for 56 yards that game. DA was 14-37 throwing… FOURTEEN OF THIRTY SEVEN. His unbelievably bad reads and terrible interceptions caused us to get behind and abandon the run game. The Ravens were either outplayed or even for all but 5 minutes of that game.
you actin like Anderson going “FOURTEEN OF THIRTY” was his fault. That was caused by our Defense. I do admit that the WR had a few drops but some of those were because they didnt want to take the same hit K2 did. Also, It was a dominating performance because our D turne dit around for us and only allowed 1 TD. What do you call that?
FEAR THE NEVERMORE DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Superior at every other position other than LB?
So your running back is superior to our running backS? And your safeties are better than Ed Reed and anybody else? Even our punter is far superior than yours. Yeah, you have a better o-line, but they haven’t looked so good. DA should be better than Flacco, but something tells us both that that comparison should reverse over the next year or so. Your wideouts should be far superior, but would be only if they could consistently catch the ball, as there is no one with hands like D. Mason on your roster.
You can go position by position if you want, but the overall comparison is that our defense is so far superior to yours while your offense has only been marginally better this year than ours. Together, that doesn’t bode well for Cleveland. However, it is a home game and you should have the upper hand, although trust me, Ravens fans will in no way concede this game to you until the final seconds click off the clock.
Rexx
Your....
Secondary, LB, and D line is not better then ours. DO NOT think that just because you got williams and rodgers in the off season that they are better then Ngata, Bannan, and Pryce. We have allowed 450 yards rushing total this year! You have allowed twice as many rushing yards as us, allowing 991! Our secondary, WHICH IS MISSING 3 STARTERS!, has allowed nearly 250 yards less then yours. And I dont even want to start with our LBs. Our 3 running backs have produced more then Jamal and whoever the hell your other scrub back is. Our “Old Man” Mason has 12 more receptions and 50 more yards then your “Stud” Edwards. Dont come to this site stating things like “as we’re superior at every other position except LB” because you are wrong. We have outplayed you this year with our so called “Less Superior” players. Please man, keep wearing your Orange Helmets, BROWNIES!
Tight End?
After watching most Ravens games and a good bit of Browns games, i would certainly say that the Browns have far better TE’s. He used to be really good but this year Heap sucks.
Your starting TE didnt even play the last two games and you guys are 2-0 without him. Heap may suck, but at least he knows how to stay on the feild and win.
FEAR THE NEVERMORE DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
You attack us for being too pro-Baltimore
and claim that a 28-10 victory was not a blowout, and that You have superior players at every position except QB and LB. That’s quite ironic.
In any case, two major points. The 28-10 victory was indeed a blowout. Our offensive line absolutely manhandled your defensive line, allowing one sack to Alex Hall (where Flacco held the ball for five seconds), and absolutely gashed you for rushing yards. DA was sacked 4 times and under constant pressure. Sure, the Browns picked off two passes, but one of them was a called deep pass that was just a terrible play call, and the other was on a terrible throw by… our QB. At least Our DBs had to work for their picks. Flacco and Cam Cameron made your secondary look better then it really was due to odd playcalling and bad accuracy in the first half. This victory could easily have been 31-10 (or 34-10) if the Ravens hadn’t decided to go for it on a 4th and 3 in the red zone to try to run out the clock and instead kick the fieldgoal, or if the Ravens decided to do something after Rolle’s interception instead of victory formation. And how about the Ravens offense on 3rd downs and in the red zone? Baltimore converted it’s first 3 tries in the Red zone, only to not convert when the game was practically over and the Ravens were just running out clock anyway.
Positional Breakdown.
RB – slight advantage Ravens, McGahee isn’t healthy, but if he was he’d be way better than Jamal Lewis, who I remember only too well in 2006. Harrison is pretty cool for you guys, but he doesn’t beat both Ray Rice and LeRon McClain. The Ravens take this on depth and versatility (but only slightly because of McGahee’s health).
WR – Browns (I think) Normally this would be Browns no contest. But your receivers really haven’t been much to brag about this year. Normally Braylon Edwards would be better than anything we have, but he’s been dropping a lot of passes and just seems to be out of it. Without JJ, the Browns lack a solid possession receiver as well. Stallworth hasn’t been healthy, and has done nothing much since he’s been back. Plus, it’s not clear to me that he’s really any good at all. The Ravens WRs are terrible except for Derrick Mason, who is awesome. I’ll give this to Cleveland because Stallworth is still better than any non-Mason WR we have and Edwards should be better than Mason even though he’s not performing that way right now.
TE – (Browns clearly) Both for depth and for the fact that Heap is seriously underperfoming, this one is all Browns.
OL – (Browns clearly) JT>>> Jared Gaither, although I hope Gaither improves. Was a lot closer when we still had Adam Terry and Marshall Yanda healthy, but would still have been Browns then.
DL – (Ravens clearly) Even if you argue that Shaun Rogers is better than Haloti Ngata, which is possible, but not clear, I just can’t accept any argument that Corey Williams is better than Trevor Pryce, or whoever you have as your 3rd Dlineman is better than Justin Bannan, who is playing very well this year. In addition, the Ravens have an excellent depth guy in Marques Douglas, and have been absolutely smothering the run.
LB (Ravens by a million, but you’ve already conceded this) – Alex Hall is a great find for you guys, but he doesn’t carry a quite mediocre Linebacker corps. The Ravens might have the best LB corps in the NFL.
CBs (I have no idea) The Browns CBs, originally considered to be a weakness, have been playing much better than expected. The Ravens CBs have had injury issues, but Samari Rolle and C-Mac might be back this week. If they play, the Ravens will have much more depth and very good veteran players at corner. The Browns have little depth at the position. If we have to play without both Rolle and C-Mac, then the Browns will have better starting corners and neither will have much depth.
Safety (Ravens slightly) – Ed Reed is still, although injured, one of the best safeties in the NFL. Dawan Landry is still getting healthy, so he’s not part of the picture. But the Browns safeties are solid but not great, and Leonhard, Zbikowski, and Nakamura have all been playing well in relief of Landry. If Landry was healthy, this would also be clearly Ravens.
ST- (who knows?) – The Ravens currently have the most effective punter in the AFC, where Zastudil is solid but not excellent. Dawson is better on kickoffs and longer kicks than Stover, and is clearly better at this point. The Ravens have been on-and off for both of their return game and coverage units. The Browns have not been playing as well on those units as we’ve come to expect. I don’t know who’ll be better at this on Sunday.
I think the Browns have been playing better, are improving, and definitely could beat the Ravens on Sunday, but to call them a superior team at every position but QB and LB is kind of ridiculous. The Ravens clearly have a better defense than the Browns, and it’s not just because of the linebackers.
I haven’t read all this, but I will. I just wanted to correct before anyone else posts. I meant “position groups.” Therefore. DL, yes, Rogers has been and is that good, along w/ Williams. Secondary? Most certainly, yes. Neither of your corners would start for us, and though Reed is a beast, he doesn’t overcome the advantage we have at Corner.
OL, obvious, WR, obvious, RB, less obvious but still way obvious.
What Advantage?!?
Eric Wright?? Does Gary Baxter still play for you? Maybe we can give you frank walker, just like we have given you all of our other washed up players over the years IE, Jamal, Baxter, Zastidel.
Yes, E. Wright and B. McDonald would both start for you. Baxter has been let go and his career is probably over after a tragic double injury. Jamal was the 5th best back in football last year.
Rexx, you know I think you drastically overestimate the value and skill of your corners (I just can’t get all those replays of McAlister getting burned deep out of my head…).
But this off season I backed it up w/ numbers (please, anyone, search my name on this site and “Wright” or “McDonald” for proof). You just spout random generalizations about fan bases and short term trends (Browns suck, Ravens draft amazing).
Not short term
The Ravens have drafted great almost every year they’ve been in existence. That is not a trend. The Browns have sucked every year they’ve been back in existence, with the exception of last year. They’ve under performed this year and had they lost to Jax and were 2-5, everyone, including most Clevelnad fans, would say so as well. They won last week, but if we beat you for a second time this season and you fall to 3-5, everyone will begin again to say that they suck. Win or lose, the Ravens could be either 4-4 or 5-3, but no one will say they suck no matter what happens this week.
C-Mac gets burned almost once per game, but he is still considered one of the top corners in the league. Not in the top five, but definitely the top 15, and better than anyone on Cleveland’s roster.
Rexx
There isn’t a GM in football that wouldn’t trade C-Mac for either Wright or McDonald. Even Newsome.
The Browns have lost 3 games due entirely to one individual, DA. This while we have a better option on the bench. We are 3-4 inspite of DA, simply b/c this is a playoff caliber roster that is stacked with talent on all three areas of the game (excepting LBs on the D). It is a roster that is superior to the Ravens’, and as long as we don’t get another 22.9 rating performance out of our QB, this game should not and will not be close.
Are you saying the Browns are so much better than the Steelers and Titans
Ravens played against those teams, and those games were pretty freaking close.
There are very few great analysis of D-Line as a whole or as individuals
But here are some stats…
The Ravens allow 2.84 yards per carry, the best in the NFL. The Browns allow 4.8 yards per carry, the 28th best in the NFL.
The Ravens force a negative pass play (sack or interception) on 10.4% of pass plays, good for 9th in the NFL, while the Browns force a negative pass play on 10.8% of pass plays, good for 8th in the NFL.
The Ravens allow 34.6% of 3rd downs to be converted, good for 8th in the NFL. The Browns allow 38.8% of 3rd downs to be converted, good for 17th in the NFL.
That’s why CHFF ranks the Ravens as the 4th best Defensive line in the league, and the Browns as the 17th best.
Look, Rogers is a great player capable of forcing the double team and getting to the QB, but the rest of your defensive line is at best mediocre. Incidentally, Haloti Ngata is also A REALLY GOOD PLAYER. He kind of serves as a counterpoint to Rogers in this. Which lets us compare Bannan and Pryce to Williams and whoever your third guy is (I will add that I hope Robaire Smith gets well this season). Bannan and Pryce are way better, which is why no-one runs on the Ravens, and the Browns are almost allowing 4.8 a carry.
All of the stats you provided are b/c of your LBs, they are tremendous.
The difference between Sean Rogers and Ngata, ie our best vs. your best, (one of the top two or three DL in all of football vs a “good” player) is bigger than the razor thin line between Williams/Smith and Bannan Pryce.
The reason we allow 4.8 is b/c we quite literally need 4 new LBs. Wimbley and Jackson have been total busts.
Ah so Shaun Smith has that 3rd job... OK.
I find it incredible that you are attributing 2 YPC to just differences in a linebacker corps.
Consider this. You’re arguing that Williams and Smith are basically equivalent, that our secondary isn’t very good, and Shaun Rogers is vastly superior to Haloti Ngata, yet when it comes to the run game there is a 2 YPC difference.
That means it’s like a 2.3-2.5 YPC difference in the linebacking corps alone. Absolutely, positively implausible. The Defensive line is part of the reason you struggle in the run game.
I’ll concede Rogers gives you more of a pass rush from the D-Line than we get from our D-line, but we both know the 3-4 defenses primary responsibility of their d-line is to stuff the run.
As for needing 4 new LBs, Alex Hall seems pretty good.
Your run defense is obviously amazing. Perhaps I’m short changing Bannan and Pryce. Considering they’re 29 and 33, and Williams Smith are both like 26-27, I assumed a push or at best slight advantage one way or the other with these 4… and Rogers is much better than Ngata. Therefore overall edge goes to the Browns.
Pryce in his prime was one of the best defensive lineman in the NFL. He had 13 sacks in 2006. He seems to get held a lot this year though (partially due to the holding penalties). Injuries bogged him down last year, but he’s still got a lot of game.
Bannan has been a big surprise. Much like you can’t judge Shaun Rogers by what he did last year, you can’t judge Bannan by what he was before either.
You are clearly underestimating Ngata. Ngata is a top 10 DT. No question. The difference between him and Rogers is not a chasm.
Matt Shaub is not a top 10 QB
And Tom Brady was great, but not perceived as highly as he is now, until he got Randy Moss and Wes Welker.
It’s also apples to oranges. QB is a very unique position. There are twice as many starting DTs as QBs. And Ngata might be top 5.
All those incredible plays by our LBs??? Ngata has a major hand in all of them.
Rogers is playing very very well, and unlike you, I’m not bringing up the “What did he do last year?” argument.
Ngata is also playing extremely well, and he’s getting better every week (see the sack on Jamarcus Russell where he absolutely rips past Robert Gallery (who is a very good guard).
I just needed a name, so I looked up current ratings, and Schaub is, like, #8 or something. I don’t think Ngata is even sniffing top 5.
Bottom line, there’s no doubt in my mind that the Browns D would be top 3 in football with Lewis, Scott and Suggs… and probably two of them would do the trick. It’s your best position group by lightyears.
Sean Rodgers isnt that much(if at all) better then Ngata. Haloti Ngata is the main reason why are LB are so good. It takes two and sometimes 3 players to block him. This allows for our Lb to run freely. Rodgers is the only guy on your D that would start for us and thats only because Kelly Greg is injuried. When health, im taking Kelly over Shaun any day.
FEAR THE NEVERMORE DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ngata
is vastly underrated. The DT postion in Baltimore has always been to occupy the o-linemen and allow Ray and the other LB’s to make the tackles. In that way, he’s been as good as Siragusa and Sam Adams were in the Super Bowl year. Based on his role for us, I wouldn’t trade him for Shaun Rogers under any circumstances. Rogers made his rep for one of the worst teams in the league, and now has to be the star in Cleveland, which just isn’t that impressive to me or the rest of the NFL.
Rexx
Exactly the opposite of truth. Rogers’ role is exactly the same for us as your DT is for you. He’s even commented on how wonderful it is not to have to be “the star” and that he has had to work on the new philosophy of unselfishness and letting others make the play.
He’s just so damn good he can’t be blocked by even two guys, so he makes plays.
WHAT!
Jackson is 5th in the league in tackles, how is that a BUST?!?! And he went to my college, come on man, hes the only Brownie i like
If we are going to group up the secondary, how shall we measure them
If Wright and McDonald are so good, let’s look at defensive passer rating.
Ravens DPR – 67.6, 3rd in the NFL
Browns DPR – 78.4, 12th in the NFL
We have just about the same level of pass-rush as we’ve seen before, so what constitutes such a difference in DPR? I guess the Ravens secondary is just 10 points better.
We might just as well compare the Orioles’ team ERA to the Indians’. It would be as relevant a stat.
Passer rating isn't so bad.
Especially if you break it down… which I’ll do right here.
Ravens allow 52.6% of passes to be completed, Browns allow 64.3%.
Ravens allow 6.42 YPA, Browns allow 7.17.
Ravens have allowed 8 TD passes and picked off 9 passes.
Browns have allowed 7 TD passes and picked off 9 passes.
The teams allow the same distance on passes, pick off the same number of passes, and let about the same number of passes reach the end zone.
The main difference, the Ravens get one more incompletion every 9 attempts than the Browns do.
If you are looking for more high tech numbers look at what Football Outsiders thinks of the two defenses. Do you think they’d entertain the argument that the difference in our defenses boils down to one position group?
Corners specifically, I’d look at yards per attempt given up… and I’d use more than just this year’s small sample, but last year too.
Your last question is a good one, but everyone knows that a 3-4 is driven by the LBs. I just don’t think you can overestimate how bad Jackson, Davis, Wimbley and McGinest/Hall have played this year. They’re literally the Sage Rosenfels of linebacking corps.
looking at our secondary last year is completely bogus because
C-Mac and Samari were injured all season and Fabian Washington and Frank Walker weren’t even part of the team. We were relying on Corey Ivy and David Pittman as corners, and they were absolutely terrible. Corey Ivy is now our 5th corner where he belongs, and Pittman is not even part of the team.
I meant individual stats, ie, of your starters. Rolle and “C-Mac” are shadows of their former selves, which were overrated players to begin with.
I don't know where I could even begin to find that information...
But here is some data I can find for you.
http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
Note that the Ravens are strong against the first and second receivers, but weak against the 3rd + receiver. We are also strong against TEs and RBs in the passing game.
Cleveland is very very good against passes to running backs… (maybe your linebackers are better than you give them credit for). And good against 3rd+ option receivers. But they haven’t been doing a good job covering the #1 and #2 guy.
As for RB
Jamal Lewis had a great season last year running behind an excellent offensive line and with a great passing game to distract players from mister TwinkleToes.
Willis McGahee had a great season last year (rushing for only 100 fewer yards) running behind a bad offensive line with absolutely no passing game whatsoever.
McGahee is better than Lewis, but he’s injured. However, the Ravens have better depth at that position because they have Ray Rice and LeRon McClain.
I guess we'll stay fans of our own teams
As far as everyone else other than the Ravens and/or Browns fans, they’ll look at the stats and take the Ravens defense from A-Z over the Browns no matter how you want to break it down.
Rexx
kwoog-
I just read this entire blog and I think you were stuffed at the goal line. You came with wishes and drowned in statistics. These guys know there stuff and would admit defeat in a second but you are a loose cannon who just had a ball blow up in the chamber. I do however like how you use the word amazing when describing our D. The only thing amazing about the Browns is the continued hope of their fans. I guess the bridges aren’t high enough out there. Ravens 34 Browns 12. Jamal’s loses 3 inches of height, Anderson is booed and chants of Quinn ring out…but ignored. Our three headed monster backfield puts up 220 all purpose yards. Mason gets 8 grabs. Heap has best game w/5 for 70. Man, I could keep going with this one. Not a pretty site for Brownies Sunday.
We had a new team learning how to play together the last time we met. These guys have learned their rolls and have become much better. If second gamers Flacco and Rice could hang 28 on you then….The Browns are one bad loss from implosion. The Giants game distracted everyone from the QB controversy, the Winslow issue and mediocre play. The Redskins let you hang around. Next week it all falls apart.
Fine w/ me
While I don’t agree w/ his comments, he is a huge Browns fans and knows more about football than most guys. Glad to have him peruse our site. Sadly though, his blind loyalty cannot be backed up with stats as it instead is based on his commitment to his team. Might not agree, but gotta love his dedication and willingness to take a stance, as misguided as the poor guy is.
Rexx
Just admit it
You Browns want to be just like us Ravens. You are still a little jealous that THE GREAT ART MODELL took your team away to bring them to this beautiful city. So, you see how our players destroy your team year in year out, and sign them the next after we have determined they are washed up. All the former Ravens you have signed, we now have better players at those positions. McGahee > Jamal, Samari & Fabian > Baxter (even though he doesnt play for yall) Koch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zastidul, Koch is the best punter in the NFL, he will be in the pro bowl with a 55 yard avg this season. Who am I forgetting?? Hmmmm. OH YEAH! Flacco > Anderson, Yea I said it, get some wins under your belt, then come talk to me. FLACCO IS FASTER THEN VICK! (Before he went to prison)
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